Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

They could do that, but what would the courts say about it? Not seeing anything in the relevant antidiscrimination law about licenses or any other official documentation being necessary or even indicative.
For any claim, you are left to your proofs. NJ notoriously supports a 'spirit of the law' interpretation, not 'letter of the law'. While the court may show automatic deference to preferred pronouns as a courtesy, the court has no prohibition for refusing to accept the testimony under the weight of evidence.
 
They could do that, but what would the courts say about it? Not seeing anything in the relevant antidiscrimination law about licenses or any other official documentation being necessary or even indicative.
There is no such requirement. And even if there were, it's trivial to satisfy, since NJ allows you to pick whatever gender ID you want.
 
Are you aware that in New Jersey anyone can freely change the gender on their license to male, female, or even "X" whenever they want?
These are just extra steps, but anyone can take them.
Absolutely. And a cop or court can consider them 'extra steps' to deceive.

There are no magic words. There is an obligation to initially respect forms of address, liberally expanded to transpeople in the spirit of inclusiveness. They in no way grant you blanket immunity.
We were talking about bathrooms. Stricter rules on prisons are well and good, but they don't apply to bathrooms.
Fair enough.
 
You cannot decree that this thread has to be restricted to bathrooms. It might be convenient for you, but I don’t give a ◊◊◊◊.
I didn't decree that, and I didn't ask for that. You asked me about dressing rooms and I agreed with you.

You refuse to concede that you're wrong about bathrooms, because as it turns out, the dogmatic beliefs do not lie with me.

Is that a real attempt to get an answer from women, or more mansplaining?
You still haven't answered my question about where I mansplained anything. Seems like a charge you're just throwing around in the same way people use "You have privilege" to mean "Due to your privilege, you aren't allowed to express an opinion about this, or even relevant facts."

But it was a real question. If I see a guy who's a foot taller than me and built like a linebacker doing something that suggests criminal intent, I'm not going to confront him directly. I'd look for somebody who deals with that on a professional basis, like a security guard or a property manager, and if I can't find them I'd call the cops.

Some people absolutely do.
In exactly the way the change in law was intended to allow them to.

No there isn't. Any male is permitted to use them, by law.
This is still factually incorrect, no matter how many times you care to repeat it. What we have here is legalism with zero attention given to the content of the law, academic arguments without academic distinction.

The law imposes a very minor condition on such use (you have to "identify" as a woman), but that is a condition which any male could satisfy, if they chose to do so. Hence, unisex with extra steps, the extra step being to choose to "identify" as a woman.
And it's a condition that is sufficient to prevent people from treating gender-segregated bathrooms as unisex in practice. Which means they aren't de facto unisex, because that's what de facto means.

I really wonder about some of you. How does this work, in your mind? John/Jane Q. Public, standing between the entrance to the women's and men's bathrooms, thinks "Hmmm, which of these unisex bathrooms, one curiously and quaintly labeled with ♀, the other with ♂ shall I use today?"

I cannot say that I have ever chosen not to use the women's room, because it just doesn't occur to me that it's an option in the first place. Your complaint here is effectively that this is an honor system. Well, it always was, and the honor system, in the case of bathrooms, anyway, seems to work just fine.

Do you you see why that definition doesn't protect women from unwanted exposure if males can enter their bathrooms?
That's pretty evident from the facts of the case. It does not seem wise to tinker too much with that definition, however, since doing so could expose anyone in a public accommodation that permits nudity to criminal liability. There are presumably other legal avenues that could be pursued.

Hard cases make bad law.
 
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Absolutely. And a cop or court can consider them 'extra steps' to deceive.
It's funny to see you now ignore the problem you previously leaned on of people claiming gender discrimination.

And on what possible grounds could they be considered deception? The ONLY legal grounds to dismiss a choice of gender identity is if the person is claiming the identity in order to commit fraud, but entering the "wrong" bathroom isn't fraud, even if you want to call it deception.
 
How would you characterize this subset?
"Trans" will do.

Seems to me that anyone can opt out of it at any time, under the social conventions of gender ontology and under the antidiscrimination laws written atop them.
And? You will still need to opt out.

The idea that these anti-discrimination laws were written under "the social conventions of gender ontology" is fanciful nonsense. They were written in the same way that anti-discrimination law always is--by noticing a historical trend of hostility against difference for a given characteristic, and then determining that such differences ought to be protected from discrimination or unfair treatment as a result. They are always an attempt to address problems that crop up in the real world.
 
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This is extremely good.


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Your complaint here is effectively that this is an honor system. Well, it always was, and the honor system, in the case of bathrooms, anyway, seems to work just fine.
No. The problem isn't that it's an honor system. It's NOT an honor system, not anymore. In an honor system, you don't check beforehand, but there is still recourse after the fact when people violate that honor system. Now, there is no recourse. Now, in NJ, you cannot eject a male in the women's bathroom because they are male.
That's pretty evident from the facts of the case. It does not seem wise to tinker too much with that definition, however, since doing so could expose anyone in a public accommodation that permits nudity to criminal liability.
I'm not suggesting changing the definition. I'm pointing out that when you use that definition AND allow self-identified males to enter those female spaces, it becomes incredibly hard to actually protect women from unwanted exposure. The combination of that definition plus self-ID access causes problems. To solve those problems, you don't need to change the definition of indecent exposure, you can also just revert back to sex segregation in those spaces.
 
It's funny to see you now ignore the problem you previously leaned on of people claiming gender discrimination.

And on what possible grounds could they be considered deception? The ONLY legal grounds to dismiss a choice of gender identity is if the person is claiming the identity in order to commit fraud, but entering the "wrong" bathroom isn't fraud, even if you want to call it deception.
No, the arguments presented here have been that the transperson is intending to commit assault, and more applicably, voyeurism and/or exhibitionism. Those are crimes, punishable under any policy.

Remember Merager in the Wi Spa? He was charged with L&L behavior, even though he was behaving pretty much like everyone else. Even super liberal California did not accept the magic words pass. While he... ahem... got off, it was because the jury was not convinced he was indulging in sexual gratification.
 
No. The problem isn't that it's an honor system. It's NOT an honor system, not anymore.
It is. It's just an honor system where what you're asked to be honest about has changed from "sex" to "gender".

To solve those problems, you don't need to change the definition of indecent exposure, you can also just revert back to sex segregation in those spaces.
Which is what "other legal avenues" meant.
 
No, the arguments presented here have been that the transperson is intending to commit assault, and more applicably, voyeurism and/or exhibitionism. Those are crimes, punishable under any policy.

Remember Merager in the Wi Spa? He was charged with L&L behavior, even though he was behaving pretty much like everyone else. Even super liberal California did not accept the magic words pass. While he... ahem... got off, it was because the jury was not convinced he was indulging in sexual gratification.
I don't know what point you thought you were proving. But what you actually proved is that in California, because of self ID, women DO NOT have any real protection against unwanted exposure by males.
 
I don't know what point you thought you were proving. But what you actually proved is that in California, because of self ID, women DO NOT have any real protection against unwanted exposure by males.
Oh, will you drop the act? You know full and well that Wi Spa had nothing to do with admittance based on his gender. It had to do solely with behavior. Men, women, and transpeople are charged with that offense in the same way, on the same grounds. No 'magic words' allow you to commit voyeurism or exhibitionism, as the argument is claimed here.

ETA: and you have yet to show that Cubana Angel and the Holy Rollers were not expressly advised of this 'unwanted exposure'. I'm inclined to believe they were, and that it is still stupid at the incredible level to decide to prance around naked in a place of public accommodation before checking into such a foreseeable expectation.
 
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Does this mean you are in favor of dismantling self-ID?
In some areas I don't think it's appropriate. There are clear differences between bathrooms and dressing rooms that people in this thread want to elide--dressing rooms are spaces where people are routinely nude in common areas, and are permitted to be. That makes then a target for things like voyeurism or exhibitionism. Either they need to be radically redesigned or some further restrictions need to be placed on who is permitted to be there. There's also the difference in how enforcement can be handled. A "no cock and balls allowed" policy is hard to enforce in public restrooms. It's quite a bit easier if you can see them.

Alls I'm trying to say here is that bathrooms don't seem like a huge problem to me, and that overpolicing who is permitted to be in them is likely to cause more problems than it solves.
 
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Oh, will you drop the act? You know full and well that Wi Spa had nothing to do with admittance based on his gender. It had to do solely with behavior.
And as it turns out, his behavior was legal. Do you not get that? The only legal basis for the claim that it was illegal was that he was doing it to arouse himself. But apparently he wasn't, so there was nothing illegal about it.
Men, women, and transpeople are charged with that offense in the same way, on the same grounds.
Sure. But a female exposing herself to other females isn't the same as a male exposing himself to females. His behavior caused problems INDEPENDENT of whether or not he was doing it for sexual arousal. You keep ignoring that.
 
Alls I'm trying to say here is that bathrooms don't seem like a huge problem to me, and that overpolicing who is permitted to be in them is likely to cause more problems than it solves.
The solution to overpolicing isn't to not allow any policing at all. Which is what self-ID does.
 
And as it turns out, his behavior was legal. Do you not get that? The only legal basis for the claim that it was illegal was that he was doing it to arouse himself. But apparently he wasn't, so there was nothing illegal about it.
Not 'legal', as the foreman said, but not sufficiently proven. So found the jury of Californians and not the State, yes.

{eta: the difference between 'innocent, what you did was legal' and 'guilt was not sufficiently proven' is rather large. OJ Simpson (in the same State) was found not guilty (not sufficiently proven by the State), not found innocent and 'what he did was legal"}
Sure. But a female exposing herself to other females isn't the same as a male exposing himself to females. His behavior caused problems INDEPENDENT of whether or not he was doing it for sexual arousal. You keep ignoring that.
Right, which was why he was tried instead of charges being dismissed out of hand. You keep ignoring that.
 
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