The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Jack by the hedge]

How do you know they didn't bring the case up? Just not that diver. If you go back to the original link giving the full transcript, you'll see it is not just cherry picking the cabin 6320 one.

He was not told to bring the case up. He moved on. He tried to search the bathroom next, not something he would have done burdened by a case he was now carrying around. If they wanted the case they would have taken it when they had it, not abandon it in the hope it could be found again another time.

We can all hear perfectly clearly how both men mangle the Russian name when they try to read it. "I'll see if that rings a bell up 'ere" says the controller and then later "... or summat" he says, knowing he's making a hash of pronouncing whatever the unfamiliar name really is.

By having us skip to the 6" mark (sic) you miss the text at each end of the video describing how conspiracy theorists leap on this brief case find as evidence it was being searched for but the video maker is very clear indeed that this is obvious bollocks.

You are deluding yourself if you think this is evidence that briefcase was being searched for.

 

[JayUtah]

Well I barely got half way through it when I was overcome by boredom.

The reason for your dereliction is irrelevant. Because of it, you may have missed the evidence that supports the characterization of anti-Semitism, whether that’s important to this debate or not. It matters because you typically deflect arguments by accusing your critics of being emotional or mean-spirited. So ignoring the evidence that critics’ summary may be accurate makes you the mean-spirited one.

 

[JayUtah]

I don't rely on him as a source. It seems to be the go-to for everybody else.

You made a specific claim without naming a source. Bollyn was identified as a person who made the identical claim, which is a particular distortion of an otherwise well-documented occurrence. You denied that Bollyn was your source, but cannot provide another one for that unique distortion. Therefore we conclude Bollyn was your source, but now you’re trying to deny that because the source is unreliable.

 

[Mojo]

You made a specific claim without naming a source. Bollyn was identified as a person who made the identical claim, which is a particular distortion of an otherwise well-documented occurrence. You denied that Bollyn was your source, but cannot provide another one for that unique distortion. Therefore we conclude Bollyn was your source, but now you’re trying to deny that because the source is unreliable.

Hence Vixen's vacillation between discrediting and rehabilitating him.

 

[JayUtah]

If Helsingin Sanomat reports they said it, they said it.

You may desire to trust whatever source is easy for you to Google, but since ambiguities such as “it is believed” and “it is reported” tend to increase with each retelling and distance the reader ever farther from the original authority, history prefers primary sources even if they may be harder to access from your armchair.

 

[Axxman300]

Well, let's see. It only turned about 12° and this supposedly was enough to cause the gaping hole.

No, the gash is caused by impact with the bottom, specifically against a rocky outcrop. This is obvious to everyone else because of the LACK of similar hull damage were the hull impacted on soft mud. I could be wrong but I think the Estonia was kinda heavy even before it filled with sea water.

You are really bad at basic science.

 

[Axxman300]

And a 'strong wave' knocked off the bow visor at exactly Swedish midnight, in international waters,

It was a series of large waves topped off with a probably rogue wave (or just the right big wave at the right moment of the visor's structural failure. Estonia was sailing too fast for the sea conditions. The first report contains eye-witness reports from passing vessels wherein they said they couldn't believe the Estonia's speed, and how the waves crashed over the bow into the forecastle. Your paranoia might be amusing at parties, but it is not welcome in this discussion. As far as "International Waters" goes, my background is Marine Geology. The benthic landscape in that part of the sea lends itself to rogue waves under the conditions of that night's storm. AND the Estonia was never designed to sail in such weather, nor the open ocean.

 

[JayUtah]

It was a series of large waves topped off with a probably rogue wave (or just the right big wave at the right moment of the visor's structural failure.

Any wave can be the precipitating cause. We need not infer the intensity of the wave from the mere fact that it precipitated the disaster. Unsafe operation and poor maintenance are predisposing causes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The articles clearly say Helsinki Police was the source.


Last Friday, Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki police.

SO the newspaper isn't the primary source.

 

[Axxman300]

when all the communication systems were down. Not like the Russians to interfere in this way. Von Leyen's plane having its gps blocked recently had nothing to do with the Russians, I am sure. Only a CT-er would believe that!

And yet they weren't down. This has been debunked by smarter people than I in this thread multiple times. And Estonia could communicate ship-to-ship, which was recorded. Those same recordings make it clear whoever was on the bridge had their hands full, and were clearly unprepared for an emergency situation. I could go into the design of the bridge, and the placement of key system gauges/displays in relation to the radio which complicated things, but I won't as it will be lost on you and you zeal for CIA/KGB/EIEIO/Mossad/*insert-your-western-bogeyman-here* nonsense.

Von Leyen lives in a different world than 1994 Europe. Using his recent experience is a bad example demonstrating poor judgement, and a non-grasp of technologies of the later 20th century.

 

[Axxman300]

Any wave can be the precipitating cause. We need not infer the intensity of the wave from the mere fact that it precipitated the disaster. Unsafe operation and poor maintenance are predisposing causes.

Absolutely. And they were sailing too fast for those conditions. The new reports details the sub par maintenance for sure.

 

[Vixen]

He was not told to bring the case up. He moved on. He tried to search the bathroom next, not something he would have done burdened by a case he was now carrying around. If they wanted the case they would have taken it when they had it, not abandon it in the hope it could be found again another time.

We can all hear perfectly clearly how both men mangle the Russian name when they try to read it. "I'll see if that rings a bell up 'ere" says the controller and then later "... or summat" he says, knowing he's making a hash of pronouncing whatever the unfamiliar name really is.

By having us skip to the 6" mark (sic) you miss the text at each end of the video describing how conspiracy theorists leap on this brief case find as evidence it was being searched for but the video maker is very clear indeed that this is obvious bollocks.

You are deluding yourself if you think this is evidence that briefcase was being searched for.

A poster requested the audio so I produced it for him.

 

[Vixen]

You made a specific claim without naming a source. Bollyn was identified as a person who made the identical claim, which is a particular distortion of an otherwise well-documented occurrence. You denied that Bollyn was your source, but cannot provide another one for that unique distortion. Therefore we conclude Bollyn was your source, but now you’re trying to deny that because the source is unreliable.

Citation, please, of this 'identical claim' that no-one else has ever made and is not a matter of fact.

 

[Vixen]

No, the gash is caused by impact with the bottom, specifically against a rocky outcrop. This is obvious to everyone else because of the LACK of similar hull damage were the hull impacted on soft mud. I could be wrong but I think the Estonia was kinda heavy even before it filled with sea water.

You are really bad at basic science.

It's not mentioned in the JAIC report, which is why it has been re-investigated. Because someone cared enough to push for one,

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sadly, their newspapers are dreadfully maintained, can't find historic stuff at all, half the time it's behind a paywall and full of popping up adverts. I'll decline, thanks.

Hurray!

 

[Andy_Ross]

I don't read that type of stuff. It just confirms for me that he has a pro-Islamist agenda, is a pseudo-character (fake name/ fake personna) or that he is a professional conspiracy theorist, like David Icke, simply making money out of it.

How do you know if you haven't read it?

 

[Andy_Ross]

If Helsingin Sanomat reports they said it, they said it.

How do you know?

Don't you see why the original source is important?

Newspaper stories written close to an event are the least reliable sources .

 

[Vixen]

How do you know if you haven't read it?

I read it up to p 108. If a book bores you, put it aside,

notandum: I only acquired it for Chapter IV re the Estonia sinking.

 

[Vixen]

How do you know?

Don't you see why the original source is important?

I provided the direct link to the HS page.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Well I barely got half way through it when I was overcome by boredom. Let me know the page numbers and I'll recheck if I missed those references.

I did. You obviously ignored it despite quoting the post in which I included them.