• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Since this ridiculous topic was first posted I have watched hundreds of hours of quality documentaries about maritime disasters. While I'm not an engineer, nor have experience on any watercraft over 75 feet long, I feel confident in the basics of this kind of disaster. I've made a check-list:

1. The ship has changed ownership one or more times.
2. The ship is used for tasks it was not originally designed to do.
3. Only the bare minimum of maintenance is done.
4. No maintenance is done.
5. Ship meets the minimum safety standards for operation (but the standards are outdated and the industry doesn't want to change them).
6. Recommended safety upgrades are put off to a later date.
7. Captain and key crew members are highly experienced.
8. Shipping company has a culture of, "Sail No Matter What".
9. Crew is professional but complacent.
10. Captain/Command crew confuses luck with skill.

And a couple of extras:

a. Ship gets brand-new piece of state-of-the-art safety equipment but doesn't repair or address long list of safety issues.
b. Captain mis-interprets weather forecast.

95% of ship wrecks share many of these factors. Makes no difference if the ship is private, commercial, or military.
 
Vixen said:
The unidentified - and officially unauthorised* - man in the red jacket lying under a toppled cabinet. Source: Rockwell Report plus video youtube (search function should call all this up).

*(key personnel only allowed on the bridge]
Click to expand...
Got a link to your "source".
I can in a couple of CT sites that also claim to have the divers' descriptions of the 3 on the bridge.
But they also claim this mysterious "unofficial" third person was wearing a red/brown suit. Not a red jacket.
The YT videos are useless sources.

I can not find any description of this body in any RockWellWater reports that I can find.
Section 8.8 of the JAIC report summarises the divers' observations with no mention of jacket or suit or colour.
 
Vixen said:
<snip> As my core values include integrity, honesty and authenticity . . .
Click to expand...
As Jay noted, you are not the most virtuous person in the room. This and other threads contain dozens of examples of your dishonesty, especially your dishonest mischaracterizations of other posters' arguments and comments. They also contain numerous examples your lack of integrity, as when you fail to admit your errors when clearly proven wrong, or fail to withdraw false accusations when you are unable to substantiate them.

Vixen said:
I can see what people are doing when they spread smear campaigns claiming the opposite.
Click to expand...
It's not a smear campaign when it accurately describes your behavior. Further, you seem to think it's fine for you to insult everyone else, e.g., referring to people who believe that Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend are innocent as her "fans," and referring to the pair as our "pets," while insinuating that you arrived at your conclusion logically while everyone else is simply acting on blind faith.

Vixen said:
My good friend founded an anti-bullying charity and roped me in to help set it up, after she was driven to a suicide attempt and a severe nervous breakdown, so I met many people like her in setting out couselling sessions. And do you know what struck me? These were incredibly talented and remarkably gifted in many ways that would be a great asset to any organisation, yet were persecuted and brought down by a jealous peer or peers, So the point being made here is that I can spot bullying tactics from ten paces and it doesn't work on me.
Click to expand...
You've falsely accused me of bullying you, and even provided a link to a page and invited me to take a quiz to determine whether I'm a bully. Why? Because I insisted that you either substantiate several false claims or withdraw them. So no, I don't believe that you have some special ability to spot bullying. I'm very sorry about what happened to your friend, but, as I and others have pointed out to you many times, having your views vigorously challenged and accurately characterized as conspiracy theories are neither personal attacks nor bullying.

However, as I've pointed out, claiming persecution in an attempt to mute criticism is a basic conspiracist play. Most of us have seen it many times before, and it doesn't work on us.

Vixen said:
For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying you are one such person but you seem to be puzzled as to why I haven't fallen to my knees in remorse about being 'told off'. Here's your answer, I have core values of integrity, which includes not pretending to agree with something I do not agree with and not pretending I think something is wrong when I do not think it is wrong. This is the core value of authenticity, which isn't always possible but one tries.
Click to expand...
It's not "authenticity" when you avoid questions and evidence that ought to lead you to reconsider your beliefs, which we frankly see you do all the time.
 
Vixen said:
AIUI the bridge was like a pilots cockpit: authorised personnel only. The authorised personnel, in addition, are identified by the stripes on their uniform, so even if they take off their jacket or hat, there's an insignia on the shirt. Here's Capn Mäkelä's unform from the Silja Europa, now preserved as a museum piece at Turku's maritime museum (the Forum Marinum):

Capt. Makela's M/R Europa Cabin by Username Vixen, on Flickr
Click to expand...
In addition to the other responses, granting, arguendo, that the hilited is true, did it occur to you that, in an extreme emergency, an off-duty crewmember might make his way to the bridge without taking the time to put on his uniform?
 
Vixen said:
Sadly, SpitfireIX didn't get that I was JOKING. (As in the context, the forensic scientists with engineering background knew how to measure a left behind footprint with impressive accuracy.)
Click to expand...
No. As noted, that's just the usual BS excuse you use when you put your foot in your mouth. When, for example, you made some disparaging comments about Freemasons and Freemasonry, after I told you that several of my relatives were Freemasons and took umbrage, you tried to weasel out by saying something to the effect that any fool should have known that what you'd said was just a joke. :rolleyes:
 
JayUtah said:
Indeed, but you pronounce it nanometer instead of nanometer. Similarly, a manometer is the correct name for a device that measures fluid pressure (as in sphygmomanometer for blood pressure). But of course the running joke is to point it at a male coworker and frob the device to pretend to indicate how much of a man he is.
Click to expand...
Well if you put the cuff tightly around the man parts and start pumping......
;)
 
catsmate said:
Anyone remember the Herald of Free Enterprise?
Click to expand...

Indeed: same basic mechanics of the sinking (water rushing in through the open bow doors, flooding vehicle decks and quicky destabilising/capsizing the ferry) but in HOFE's case of course, the ferry sailed into open water with its bow doors still left open(!). The HOFE incident happened in flat calm waters, but water ingress was significantly increased by suction effects from the shallow sea bed in that area, which had the effect of pulling the open bow further down towards the sea level and the bow wave....
 
Last edited:
The Herald's main contribution to this interminable thread has been as a target for one poster's claim it would not have sunk entirely (had it not come to rest on its side on a sand bar, before it was quite submerged) as they wished us to accept, if I remember correctly, that scooping up great volumes of seawater through an open bow door is not enough to make ferries sink. (The report on that accident disagrees and states plainly that it would indeed have sunk entirely had the water been deeper.)
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The Herald's main contribution to this interminable thread has been as a target for one poster's claim it would not have sunk entirely (had it not come to rest on its side on a sand bar, before it was quite submerged) as they wished us to accept, if I remember correctly, that scooping up great volumes of seawater through an open bow door is not enough to make ferries sink. (The report on that accident disagrees and states plainly that it would indeed have sunk entirely had the water been deeper.)
Click to expand...
I thought the claim was that it would have inevitably turned turtle and floated had it not come to rest on the sand bar. Of course, this required a failure to understand what "floated more or less on her beam ends" means.
 
Mojo said:
I thought the claim was that it would have inevitably turned turtle and floated had it not come to rest on the sand bar. Of course, this required a failure to understand what "floated more or less on her beam ends" means.
Click to expand...
Vixen said thart the HOFE would have floated upside down if it weren't for the sandbank because apparently, according to her, that's how ships are designed. I'm not a maritime engineer, but I'm pretty sure ships are designed to float the other way up.

edit: And just for grins and giggles, while searching for some old posts on this topic, I found a post of Vixen's where she said that Jutta Rabe found submarine tracks on the Baltic seafloor which she and someone called "Greg Bemiss" identified as being caused by submarine wheels, which Vixen says are sometimes found on minisubs...

edit2: The new search function is super duper BTW, much faster than the old version.
 
Last edited:
JesseCuster said:
edit: And just for grins and giggles, while searching for some old posts on this topic, I found a post of Vixen's where she said that Jutta Rabe found submarine tracks on the Baltic seafloor which she and someone called "Greg Bemiss" identified as being caused by submarine wheels, which Vixen says are sometimes found on minisubs...
Click to expand...

I give you the German Seeteufel tracked submarine

1756846505580.png1756846549653.png
en.wikipedia.org

Seeteufel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom