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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

That's another thing: Didn't you "quote" a lot of newspaper reports in this thread which turned out to be secondary quotations from someone reporting what they wanted to claim newspapers had reported?

Can you substantiate the claim these three newspapers reported Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital? i.e. That they confirmed he was at the hospital at some point and now could not be located? I shall be surprised if you can do that.

Here's a US paper
By Richard W. Stevenson
  • Oct. 1, 1994
quoting Reuters (who check their facts) and from which probably the other papers also took their sources:

Among the survivors was one of the ferry's two captains, Aavo Piht, an Estonian. The authorities said that after some confusion regarding his whereabouts, he had been found in Finland and that he had spoken to investigators. They said they had no information about what Mr. Piht had told the investigators.
Mr. Piht was not in command during the voyage but is believed to have been on the bridge. The other captain, Arvo Andresson, who is also Estonian, is believed to have gone down with the ship.

Bengt-Erik Stenmark, the Swedish maritime administration's safety director, told a news conference that survivors' accounts suggested the "bow door had a break" that was "exposed to the excessive forces of the sea."
NY TIMES

This info was from 'Helsinki Police'. NB HS is equivalent to say, the old style TIMES, extremely reliable and accurate source for news.
Many versions of Captain Pihti's fate Nykänen Harri 1.10.1994 2:00 Several versions of the fate of Estonia's second chief, Sea Captain Avo Pihti, are circulating. Last Friday, swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki Police. HS

29.9


Interviews with the ship's crew will be interviewed today, Thursday. In particular, it is thought that enlightenment will be obtained from Avo Pihti , the second master of the ship , who was going to Sweden as a passenger. Arvo Anderson, who commanded the ship, drowned with his ship. HS
Stenmark resigned' the same day as the newspaper reports, 1.10.
 
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Given in shipping tragedies (and now, so-called hybrid sabotage) it is imperative for prosecutors of the waters the vessel is in to bring in the Captain. I don't care if he was dead, it could be ascertained as to whether he suffered cardiac arrest, and hence the second and third mates had to take over, to disastrous effect, or whether - in the wildest conspiracy - some mafia-type gangster shot him; it is odd there was no apparent desire to hoist him up, if only for the sake of the investigation. The Estonian crew/staff supposedly listed as 'survivors' initially, included the IVth Officer navigator, the Chief Engineer, the Chief Doctor plus the bar manager and a couple of cruise entertainers. Almost all of these would be persons of very great interest. Especially as some will have been on duty as of the time leading up to the 'accident'.
Rubbish.
 
No, it most certainly was not, and this was explained to you in excruciatingly thorough detail.

The issue is trivial in terms of the overall discussion, but not at all trivial as an example of your bad faith argumentation preferences. You had the opportunity to correct your mistake early and move on. But you doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on it to save face—and you are still doing so. When you express interest in a topic and invite discussion, this kind of evidence of good or bad faith determines how seriously others should take you.
Even if in someone's opinion it was wrong why run an entire hate campaign over it, when it is obvious what it referred to, i.e., how long it took for the Estonia to sink? This is what I mean about being subjected unwarranted bullying as though I was a wrongdoer, based on someone's failure to grasp primes are quite normal in annotating time duration, for those of us who use it.
 
I have never said anything at all about Y2K issues 'a quarter century ago'.
No, you haven't, but Rabe did. That's the point being made.

How do you know whether I know the meaning of words or not? How do you know you are better than me?
When you use the word incorrectly it shows you do not know the meaning of the word you use.
 
Even if in someone's opinion it was wrong why run an entire hate campaign over it, when it is obvious what it referred to, i.e., how long it took for the Estonia to sink? This is what I mean about being subjected unwarranted bullying as though I was a wrongdoer, based on someone's failure to grasp primes are quite normal in annotating time duration, for those of us who use it.
It isn't someone's opinion Vixen, you're simply wrong.

No, you've not been subject to a hate campaign or bullying. People are just pointing out that you're wrong.
 
I have never said anything at all about Y2K issues 'a quarter century ago'.
But Rabe did, which was the operative statement. Triple-niner fail.

How do you know whether I know the meaning of words or not?
Because you use the wrong words, such as “reinforced steel” and “high impact explosives.”

How do you know you are better than me?
In my case because I am licensed in the field that pertains to this thread. In @catsmate’s case because he can demonstrate competence.
 
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But Rabe did, which was the operative statement. Triple-niner fail.


Because you use the wrong words, such as “reinforced steel” and “high impact explosives.”


In my case because I am licensed in the field that pertains to this thread. In @catsmate
As for the reinforced steel comment, I did say it was a misstatement and would have to check (it was 'strengthened steel' I was looking for). If you really want an explanation for the error, I had been up in the early hours watching Katrina Hell and High Water on Netflix, had done the company quarterly VAT return earlier in the day and thus, was extremely tired. Is that OK to make a typographical mistake?
 
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Even if in someone's opinion it was wrong why run an entire hate campaign over it, when it is obvious what it referred to, i.e., how long it took for the Estonia to sink? This is what I mean about being subjected unwarranted bullying as though I was a wrongdoer, based on someone's failure to grasp primes are quite normal in annotating time duration, for those of us who use it.
No, you are not being bullied. You are being appropriately challenged for persisting in error despite all evidence. Examples such as this of your bad faith affect whether others might be inclined to take you seriously. As you well know, the issue was not that you used primes notation at all, but that you used the wrong primes notation and still to this day refuse to admit that error.
 
No, you haven't, but Rabe did. That's the point being made.


When you use the word incorrectly it shows you do not know the meaning of the word you use.
OK fair enough. Rabe is a journalist. Just because one might have disagreed over a Y2K issue, it doesn't mean everything she does is bad. I don't have any particular opinion about her credentials but her passion and perspicacity in trying to get to the truth of Estonia is commendable IMV because a lot of questions were left open about the disaster.
 
It wasn't a conceptual mistake. I knew what I meant. Here we go again with the 'you are stupid' putdown.
No, you are not being bullied. When you solicit examples of your errors you don’t get to whine when they are provided. It wasn’t a one-time mistake, because links were provided to other examples of exactly this same “typo.” Now kindly just admit that your critics have supported with evidence their claims that you used words improperly and that it’s reasonable therefore to propose that you don’t know what they mean.
 
No, you are not being bullied. When you solicit examples of your errors you don’t get to whine when they are provided. It wasn’t a one-time mistake, because links were provided to other examples of exactly this same “typo.” Now kindly just admit that your critics have supported with evidence their claims that you used words improperly and that it’s reasonable therefore to propose that you don’t know what they mean.
Given I have read Hegel, I rather think I do know what dialectics mean.
 
OK fair enough. Rabe is a journalist. Just because one might have disagreed over a Y2K issue, it doesn't mean everything she does is bad. I don't have any particular opinion about her credentials but her passion and perspicacity in trying to get to the truth of Estonia is commendable IMV because a lot of questions were left open about the disaster.
But you do have an opinion about her credentials. You previously insisted that we had to accept her claims regarding this sinking as credible (despite their facial problems) because she had a good reputation as a journalist. You don’t get to change that basis just because it turns out not to be true. “Passion” is not a substitute for journalistic integrity in search of the truth.
 
I think it's protocol to list passengers.
1) Even in cases where there is a passenger manifest, I'd bet it's going to be a separate document, not an entry in the pilot's logbook.
2) For a variety of reasons (have you ever ridden on a helicopter?), rescuemen aren't going to make "passenger manifests" of rescuees mid-flight. That will happen after they land and can take them somewhere where they can hear themselves think.
 
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