Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

I feel compelled to address some apparent misunderstandings in your post. My sense of compulsion is due to my having not understood the basis in Italian law about the calunnia charge and conviction for probably the first year after I became actively interested in the Knox - Sollecito case, and some of my confusion was not resolved until the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy was published in 2019.

Firstly, under Italian law, certain wrongful actions, harmful to another, are subject to both a criminal charge and penalty (for example, a prison term, and a civil (tort) action with liability (an award to the victim or the victim's family). This is similar to US law, for example, murder is a crime with a criminal penalty and, as wrongful death, a tort with a civil liability (award for damages).
But there are differences between US and Italian laws and judicial practices. In the US, as far as I know, criminal and civil trials cannot lawfully take place at the same time before the same jury or the same judge. The following online reference supports that view:
pr

Source:

However, in Italy, victims or the family of a victim of a crime have a choice: they can file an independent civil claim against an alleged perpetrator (the accused), or file that claim by joining the criminal trial; the victim's or the victim's family's civil lawyer becomes a private party lawyer (private prosecutor) working alongside the public prosecutor. Probably in part because Italian criminal trials can continue for extended times (indefinitely, for a murder, which has no statute of limitations), it is not at all uncommon for civil cases to be joined to their corresponding criminal cases, if there is one. The advantage for the civil party is that if the accused is finally convicted, the civil party is awarded compensation damages from the accused (CPP Article 651). The disadvantage for the civil party is that if the accused is finally acquitted, the civil party loses any right to collect any award from the accused, and cannot raise any subsequent civil action against the accused for the same act, provided that the reason for the acquittal is one of the following: the criminal act did not occur, the accused did not commit the criminal act, or the accused had a legal duty or right to commit the act [such as self-defense] (CPP Article 652).

Thus, for the Knox-Sollecito case, the criminal case of murder was joined by a civil case brought by Kercher's family, and the criminal case of calunnia (malicious accusation) was joined by a civil case brought by Lumumba.

Finally, there's the question of how the Italian courts reasoned to allow Knox's interrogation statements to be used against her in the criminal and civil calunnia trials (held together before the same judges but presented by a public prosecutor and private party lawyer, respectively), although the statements could not be used against her for the murder/rape charges because of the violation by the police and prosecutor of CPP Article 63, as stated by the CSC in an early ruling. The reason was not that there was a civil trial for calunnia, but because there had been an earlier ruling, in another (and subsequent) cases, by the CSC, that CPP Article 63 did not apply to spontaneous statements that were themselves criminal made during an interrogation.I learned this from statements made by Italy in the ECHR case Knox v. Italy. This is the Italian government statement, as presented in Knox v. Italy (Google translation):


Source:

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-189422
While many of the posts here address factors or events unique to the Knox - Sollecito case, it's important to understand that the ECHR case includes more general concerns, some of which may not be explicitly stated in the text of the judgment.

Let's consider the Italian about questioning a witness who incriminates himself during the questioning; since the person is a witness, no defense lawyer is generally present during the questioning. According to the general law, CPP Article 63, passed by the Italian Parliament, the incriminating statement cannot be used against the supposed witness; no exceptions to that rule are written in any CPP article.

However, the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC) has taken upon itself to issue a general ruling that if a statement given by a witness, real or supposed, who is questioned without a lawyer, is itself a criminal offense, that supposed or real witness must* be prosecuted for that statement, contrary to the letter of the law (CPP Article 63) passed by the Italian Parliament. Any such criminally offensive statement will likely violate one or both of the Italian criminal laws: Codice Penale (CP) Article 368, Calunnia (malicious false accusation against another) or CP Article 369 Autocalunnia (false confession).

What's the actual of effect of the CSC decision to allow calunnia and autocalunnia to be prosecuted when the police and/or prosecutor set up a supposed witness to be (coercively) interrogated without a lawyer present to defend and assist that person. If the statement(s) of the supposed witness turn out to be incorrect, naming someone or even himself as involved in the crime, who the police or prosecutor later find to not have been involved in the crime, according to Italian law, the supposed witness is charged with calunnia or autocalunnia, and there will be no accountability for the official misconduct of the police or prosecutor in coercing the false accusation. To prevent this cycle of impunity for unfairly acting officials, the ECHR case law demands that there must be compelling reasons in each case, specific to the accused, for the denial of a lawyer during questioning.


* If the prosecutor can lawfully prosecute, he must, under the Italian Constitution and Italian law.
 
You know, if you think back to post #5164, I informed you P2P had nothing to do with the Naruto cartoon. The file had actually been downloaded on 14 Oct, and was launched using VLC, which does not support automated launches of videos, nor was there any known automation scheduled to launch it. I provided screen captures to prove this, and at the time you acknowledged it. Fast forward a couple of months and you're back to lying about when and how the Naruto cartoon was downloaded and launched. Why is that?????

Well, then again, it's also been proven to you that Raffaele's laptop was used after he was arrested, meaning the police booted the machine up and the hard drive was working just fine. Yet you keep repeating this lie as well. Hmmmm....:unsure:

Oh, and then there's the "dismantling the U-tube to his sink" claim, which is entirely baseless. (P.S. It's called a trap)

Whoops, almost missed "got Dad and a friend to vouch for his leak being before 8:40 and that he was home at XX time", another baseless claim.

Holy cow, that's what... 4 whopper lies in one short post?!?!?! Where oh where did that "impartial, neutral and entirely objective" Vixen go????
Vixen bangs on about Amanda and Raffaele telling numerous lies but tells numerous lies in just one post which is typical guilters hypocrisy. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was a slam dunk, why has Vixen been consistently unable to argue her case without resorting to lying.
 
So you're saying you'd falsely accuse someone of burglary just to appease your significant other, even if you were uncertain of your identification?


No, it's not the same at all, because there's no inherent conflict of interest between a couple in the identification of the person they caught burglarizing their apartment. This is just another of your lame attempts to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about the evidence that Guede acted alone in raping and murdering Meredith.
I must apologise for using an example of Fair Market Value from Taxation Law in valuing property as the concept I was trying to convey about close friends and relatives. I obviously didn't succeed, my bad. Try again. 'Teacher, dog ate my homework'. Little brother: 'That's right miss, I saw the dog do it'. Now, this doesn't have the same level of credibility as, third party random stranger passerby, 'That is correct, I saw a dog, a fluffy grey-brown cockerpoo that did toss about an A4 notepad, ripping it to bits, with the headed paper, 'Homework'".
 
You're attempting to redirect, Vixen. It's not working.
You dishonestly quoted only part of Knox's statement as evidence that she did NOT retract her statements. I then quoted the rest of that statement which disproves your claim.

You also ignored this:
"So tell us what the colloquial meaning of "criminal verdict" is vs the legal meaning of "criminal verdict".
Why? Oh, never mind...we all know why.
Dalla Vedova telling ECHR Knox retracted her accusation really doesn't have the same weight as the criminal court verdict that fancy prose didn't hide the fact she committed the crime, after a new trial weighing up the merits of her case and after hearing counsel from all parties. Knox wasn't the only party in this case. There is her victim, Lumumba, who also had a right to expect justice and for his human rights not to be falsely accused of rape and murder to be respected.
 
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It was also established in Guede's conviction for having stolen property, that the watch was also stolen property. The court declared that his story about getting it from a 'friend' he could not identify was not plausible. It was included in his conviction.
It doesn't follow that he is the only burglar in the village.
 
It seems we are back to you failing to logically address this:
"You can't give a rational explanation for why that bathmat wasn't removed/washed before they called the police and made a point of pointing it out to the police if it were Sollecito's print."

All you can do is fabricate some silly "they thought they were smarter and wanted to pull one over on the police" rubbish. Stop digging. No one buys that nonsense.
It's obvious he didn't realise he'd left it there. _DOH! Criminals who think they are clever, often find the forensic guys are even cleverer.
 
None of which they knowingly and deliberately left and pointed out to the police!


This is an excellent example of you ignoring the evidence presented in court. The 3 laptops were destroyed by the police:
Massei, pg 21:

Massei MR, pg. 300

Hellmann MR:


Plus, RS's laptop was used by a police officer when he was in their custody the night of Nov. 5/6. I can quote and cite that, too, if necessary.



All of which are only your unproved allegations.


And here we go yet again with another fantasy from your imagination. It looked like a foot as anyone can see for themselves. Do you really think that if he'd actually stepped barefoot onto that mat, he couldn't deduce it was his footprint?
View attachment 63194

I guess that 'explanation' isn't any crazier than the " they wanted to put one over of the police" one!
That not what the Rome Scientific Police said.
 
Yes, it is a list of rational reasons why Guede, not Knox, is a thief. And I forgot to add two more to the list:
FACT: Guede's DNA in Kercher's blood was found on the purse.
FACT: No evidence of Knox was found in Kercher's bedroom.

On the other hand, can you give any evidence of Knox or Sollecito ever having been accused of theft? Were they ever caught with stolen property?

What "computer" are you talking about?
There are many people convicted with no previous criminal record. You keep getting hoist by your own petard, when you go on and on about Guede being a lazy layabout who couldn't hold a job yet you can't bear anyone to apply the same standards of scrutiny to your pets.
 
Previously asked and answered.

Stop trying to redirect from the actual topic which is: "You're trying to discredit Tramontano's GF by claiming she'd lie just because she's his girlfriend."

This ain't our first rodeo with you.
I was not trying to 'discredit' Taramantano's girlfriend. I was pointing out getting your girlfriend or boyfriend to back you up doesn't have the same weight as an independent, arm's length, third party. You just have to accept that his claims went nowhere because they were unprovable due mostly to the fact he failed to report it at the time.
 
You mean the only person remaining convicted of the murder of Meredith, who's going on trial yet again for a heinous crime, and is convicted of having stolen items from at least 3 different thefts and left his DNA on MK's purse ISN'T "an obvious alternative perp"?

Fortunately, most people can see your logic is rubbish.
Please try to be accurate. Guede was found to be in possession of stolen property. That really doesn't mean the same thing as theft, burglary or robbery.
 
Has anyone suggested police don't ask questions or that they ask them in different ways?
I'd provide Ficarra's testimony again, but why bother if the first two times don't get through to you?


As the police so conveniently failed to record or transcribe the interrogation, it's their word against Knox's as to whether or not she broke down immediately when his text was brought up. Knox's version is far different with them hounding her about the text, calling her a liar and accusing her of meeting him for some time and the interpreter bringing up "amnesia" before finally breaking down.

No, it was confirmation bias that made them think they'd hit a bullseye. Finzi claimed "experience" led him to collect only one knife from Sollecito's cutlery drawer when Finzi admitted he had never been given any information on the wounds or what size knife to look for.



And they certainly knew and used techniques straight from the Reid method known to produce false confessions!


And I can produce many, many examples of police extracting false confessions from innocent people, including Raffaele's interrogator, Profazio.
The Perugia cops were not "Official Receiver Examiners" so your comment is irrelevant. Do you have any evidence that Ficarra had ever been through any kind of interrogation training?


I refer you, yet again, to her previously presented testimony. Which you'll promptly ignore one again.
Knox was caught out blurting a confession and ever since then she's been trying desperately hard to convince people it was a 'false memory', police brutality, Ficarra cuffing her, tag teams of twelve flying squad from Rome shouting REMEMBER REMEMBER all night long. Icy cold Sollecito on the other hand managed to keep his cool, which gave Mignini the creeps.
 
The lie about Raffaele destroying his own laptops is being repeated yet again. Again why repeat the same lies constantly if there was hard evidence against Amanda and Raffaele and a strong case?
You can read what the police technical experts at the postal police said, here. They confirmed the laptops of AK, MK, Filomena and one of RS' were fried before they even tested them, trying to extract the hard drives. Lumumba's laptop which was number two or three being tested was perfectly fine, so there was no problem with the police apparatus. Sollecito was a fourth year IT/Computer student. He would have known that hard drives are retrievable. He would have had knowledge of how to destroy a hard drive to avoid detection of what was on it .
 
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How did your answers to SpitfireIX et al's questions get into the court documents?
The footprint on the bathmat has been discussed over and over again, so either do a search for previous discussions or go straight to the court documents. It is my perception SpitfireIX is simply being vexatious in having had a detailed response, complete with references and sources brings up the same issue again just for sport.
 
You know, if you think back to post #5164, I informed you P2P had nothing to do with the Naruto cartoon. The file had actually been downloaded on 14 Oct, and was launched using VLC, which does not support automated launches of videos, nor was there any known automation scheduled to launch it. I provided screen captures to prove this, and at the time you acknowledged it. Fast forward a couple of months and you're back to lying about when and how the Naruto cartoon was downloaded and launched. Why is that?????

Well, then again, it's also been proven to you that Raffaele's laptop was used after he was arrested, meaning the police booted the machine up and the hard drive was working just fine. Yet you keep repeating this lie as well. Hmmmm....:unsure:

Oh, and then there's the "dismantling the U-tube to his sink" claim, which is entirely baseless. (P.S. It's called a trap)

Whoops, almost missed "got Dad and a friend to vouch for his leak being before 8:40 and that he was home at XX time", another baseless claim.

Holy cow, that's what... 4 whopper lies in one short post?!?!?! Where oh where did that "impartial, neutral and entirely objective" Vixen go????
You can read what the postal police had to say about the laptops here, https://themurderofmeredithkercher.net/T-postal-police-notices.html, it is their position the laptops were fried before being received. Filomena's came to them from a different source. She had been to the cottage and taken hers away. She discovered it was dead. She took it to the Questura as ordered and the duty sergeant also found this as she reported it and he was a witness to this. The postal police confirmed her laptop was in exactly the same condition as the others: fried. Yet Lumumba's was fine. Sollecito tried to explain his laptop being dead because the police had ripped it from the wall at the plug and hence ruined it. You be the judge.
 
You know, if you think back to post #5164, I informed you P2P had nothing to do with the Naruto cartoon. The file had actually been downloaded on 14 Oct, and was launched using VLC, which does not support automated launches of videos, nor was there any known automation scheduled to launch it. I provided screen captures to prove this, and at the time you acknowledged it. Fast forward a couple of months and you're back to lying about when and how the Naruto cartoon was downloaded and launched. Why is that?????

Well, then again, it's also been proven to you that Raffaele's laptop was used after he was arrested, meaning the police booted the machine up and the hard drive was working just fine. Yet you keep repeating this lie as well. Hmmmm....:unsure:

Oh, and then there's the "dismantling the U-tube to his sink" claim, which is entirely baseless. (P.S. It's called a trap)

Whoops, almost missed "got Dad and a friend to vouch for his leak being before 8:40 and that he was home at XX time", another baseless claim.

Holy cow, that's what... 4 whopper lies in one short post?!?!?! Where oh where did that "impartial, neutral and entirely objective" Vixen go????
The police forensic guys said the Naruto was a p2p auto download. Dad said he rang his son at circa 8:40 and RS said they had had their evening meal and that he had had a leak in his kitchen after it. AK put the time of the leak at first 10:00 then 11:00, which in RS' second police interview turned into a 'flood', with the U-bend falling off all of its own accord as he was washing up. Hence the need for toing and froing with the mop next morning, etc. They just can't keep their story straight. At least Guede's account, albeit self-serving and painting himself in a good light, does have an internal consistency, that if it were to be broadly true, one would not be surprised.
 
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You know, if you think back to post #5164, I informed you P2P had nothing to do with the Naruto cartoon. The file had actually been downloaded on 14 Oct, and was launched using VLC, which does not support automated launches of videos, nor was there any known automation scheduled to launch it. I provided screen captures to prove this, and at the time you acknowledged it. Fast forward a couple of months and you're back to lying about when and how the Naruto cartoon was downloaded and launched. Why is that?????

Well, then again, it's also been proven to you that Raffaele's laptop was used after he was arrested, meaning the police booted the machine up and the hard drive was working just fine. Yet you keep repeating this lie as well. Hmmmm....:unsure:

Oh, and then there's the "dismantling the U-tube to his sink" claim, which is entirely baseless. (P.S. It's called a trap)

Whoops, almost missed "got Dad and a friend to vouch for his leak being before 8:40 and that he was home at XX time", another baseless claim.

Holy cow, that's what... 4 whopper lies in one short post?!?!?! Where oh where did that "impartial, neutral and entirely objective" Vixen go????
BTW RS had a second laptop. That one was fine.
 

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