The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Steve]

She's trying to conflate you saying her nonsensical ramblings not being interesting with the event in question not being interesting.

Like I pointed out with my David Irving comparison, which she still hasn't addressed.

Well "interesting" and "amusing" are not necessarily synonyms. I have found some useful and interesting information in the official statements on the sinking, along with the elaborations provided by knowledgeable posters on this forum. I do think all the interesting stuff is now public and the upcoming report will be a mere re-hash of what we already know. I have also found considerable amusement in the wild and baseless speculations by a certain "few" posters. And in the responses to such. This is what now brings me back to this thread periodically.

 

[Blue Mountain]

The right of reply relates to @BlueMountain's claims that he knows better than expert citations (for example, Norwegian professors of Metallurgy and the Finnish naval communications expert who gave a presentation on hydrostatically-activated automatic EPIRB's as used & installed on M/V Estonia). Trying to make out these quoted expert opinions are all reflections of idiocy.

For sure there's nothing in the forum rules and culture preventing you from replying to my post, even if you're doing it in the wrong thread. However, I said nothing about "claiming to know better" than the "expert" citations. I merely noted you were consistently wrong in your assertions about the EPIRBs on board the Estonia, as anyone can verify if they wish to review this and previous threads.

 

[Blue Mountain]

After three years of watching the Russians futz about in Ukraine the idea they had sensitive military technology worth sinking a ferry to protect is laughable. This whole conspiracy is nothing more than a cruel hoax.

That's because all their sensitive military technology went down with the Estonia and in the intervening thirty years they haven't been able to re-create it.
/s

 

[Here_to_learn]

The Swedish Accident Investigation Authority has released findings on three issues "that are not considered to have a direct bearing on the accident".

They have compared different radar tracks and identified two ships that in the JAIC report where categorized as "Unknown".

They have reviewed a document that was handed to a journalist by an anonymous source, and came to the conclusion that the document is a falsification.

And they have reviewed different reports from a port state control exercise that was executed the day before the accident.


The final report on this investigation is still in the work, with an expected release late 2025.

 

[Disbelief]

The Swedish Accident Investigation Authority has released findings on three issues "that are not considered to have a direct bearing on the accident".

They have compared different radar tracks and identified two ships that in the JAIC report where categorized as "Unknown".

They have reviewed a document that was handed to a journalist by an anonymous source, and came to the conclusion that the document is a falsification.

And they have reviewed different reports from a port state control exercise that was executed the day before the accident.


The final report on this investigation is still in the work, with an expected release late 2025.

Did they report on the submarine tracks on the ocean floor?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They have reviewed a document that was handed to a journalist by an anonymous source, and came to the conclusion that the document is a falsification.

So they're not convinced the ship sank because the intense radiation from nuclear waste aboard two military trucks, loaded at the last moment into the stern of the ship, melted the hinges of the bow door at the front? Just because it's totally ridiculous and there isn't a scrap of evidence? Disappointing. Maybe they should keep an open mind.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"Lars Borgnäs says that he cannot confirm the authenticity of either the document or the stamps, but criticizes the Swedish Maritime Accident Investigation Board for not having investigated all the claims made in the documents."

 

[Here_to_learn]

"Lars Borgnäs says that he cannot confirm the authenticity of either the document or the stamps, but criticizes the Swedish Maritime Accident Investigation Board for not having investigated all the claims made in the documents."

Yes, he also said (my translation): "But someone has obviously spent a lot of time writing the document and it is difficult to understand why it would be done and what the purpose would be if it is pure fabrication, says Lars Borgnäs."

So he doesn't seem to be clued in to the motivation of conspiracy theorists, or to why there exist people in the world that might find it positive to make people lose trust in government agencies.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Maybe they should keep an open mind.

I think the challenge with keeping things open when they should be closed is that you may get flooded in a way that make you lose your ability to keep your balance. Worst case you may hit rock bottom and crack under pressure.

But I might be going off topic for the thread now?

 

[Vixen]

So they're not convinced the ship sank because the intense radiation from nuclear waste aboard two military trucks, loaded at the last moment into the stern of the ship, melted the hinges of the bow door at the front? Just because it's totally ridiculous and there isn't a scrap of evidence? Disappointing. Maybe they should keep an open mind.

I think if you are going to borrow someone else's satire, at least provide the credit, which can be found here:

The official explanation for the Estonia accident was that the bow gate failed, but rumors say the real cause was nuclear waste smuggled from Russia to the west spilled onto the car deck from the trailer of a Russian truck. The nuclear waste quickly corroded the already rusted bow visor, and masses of water rushed onto the car deck. Unfortunately, at the same time, the ship's crew opened the stern gate to vent cigarette smoke from the car deck. The cargo began to move, and this caused the list that caused the ship to sink. Signs of an accident were already in the air shortly after leaving Tallinn, when the Estonia steamed at full speed in 25 meters per second winds and a storm to demonstrate its superiority over the ships of Viking Line and Silja. In early 2017, Risumies gave an interview to Yle's Friday program, in which he shared his own view of the accident and its cause: "The Estonia wouldn't have drowned if it had stayed on the shore!" Hikipedia

 

[lobosrul5]

I think if you are going to borrow someone else's satire, at least provide the credit, which can be found here:

You were not aware that was a satirical website the first time you mentioned that theory. Come on, admit it.

 

[Vixen]

Did they report on the submarine tracks on the ocean floor?

The Baltic is a sea, not an ocean.

BTW re submersible tracks on a seabed:

Sweden has released an image of underwater tracks which it says is clear proof that a foreign submarine illegally entered its waters last month, in an event which triggered a national search mission reminiscent of the cold war.

The sonar image shows tracks on the sea floor, which the head of the armed forces says were left by the submarine. “The military can confirm that a small submarine breached Sweden’s territorial waters. We can exclude all alternative explanations,” General Sverker Göranson told a news conference. GUARDIAN

 

[Vixen]

You were not aware that was a satirical website the first time you mentioned that theory. Come on, admit it.

Er, if something is labelled 'hiki' pedia that is a clue to a Finnish speaker.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/Etusivu

 

[Vixen]

Yes, he also said (my translation): "But someone has obviously spent a lot of time writing the document and it is difficult to understand why it would be done and what the purpose would be if it is pure fabrication, says Lars Borgnäs."

So he doesn't seem to be clued in to the motivation of conspiracy theorists, or to why there exist people in the world that might find it positive to make people lose trust in government agencies.

More from the article:

It is unclear who created the allegedly secret document. In its investigation, the Swedish Accident Investigation Board states that “someone other than a Swedish authority” created the document. Who it is, and why, is not for the Swedish Accident Investigation Board to investigate, the authority believes.

The person or persons who created the documents are likely hostile to the Swedish Maritime Administration, the Swedish Accident Investigation Board's report states.

Could you have been taken advantage of here?

– No, I have not given the document any circulation, I have left it with the authorities. But someone has obviously spent a lot of time writing the document and it is difficult to understand why it would be done and what the purpose would be if it is pure fabrication, says Lars Borgnäs. (Google translate) ibid

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Er, if something is labelled 'hiki' pedia that is a clue to a Finnish speaker.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/Etusivu

Most of us, of course, cannot read Finnish. My recollection is you only credited that site after someone declared your latest suggestion perhaps the most ridiculous yet. And you didn't expressly say you realised it was satire, which kept the pot boiling for a few more pointless pages.

I mean, I might misremember, but we have Search now so if it was worth a moment's effort...

 

[Vixen]

Most of us, of course, cannot read Finnish. My recollection is you only credited that site after someone declared your latest suggestion perhaps the most ridiculous yet. And you didn't expressly say you realised it was satire, which kept the pot boiling for a few more pointless pages.

I mean, I might misremember, but we have Search now so if it was worth a moment's effort...

The comment that the other car deck ramp was open slightly (as it was found to be, in fact) to provide a vent for cigarette smoke was the big clue, no?

 

[Disbelief]

The Baltic is a sea, not an ocean.

BTW re submersible tracks on a seabed:

How you love to try and use technicalities instead of the thrust of the comment. By the way, the Baltic Sea is part of the Atlantic Ocean, so technically I'd be right.

I also love how you use an ancient article that actually has no proof behind it for some type of floor crawling underwater vehicle. Ocean crawlers are very slow, so you'd have to fit that into your silly conspiracy somehow.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You were not aware that was a satirical website the first time you mentioned that theory. Come on, admit it.

I think she may well have known it was satire, but I think that she thought we wouldn't know and take it seriously.

I mean that's the only other possible explanation as to why she posted it here.

Oh and good to see you posting here again Vixen! Want to answer my question and provide the example of the claim you made about me from a few months ago yet? Remember? You accused me of something and I invited you to back it up or retract your baseless accusation?

 

[Vixen]

How you love to try and use technicalities instead of the thrust of the comment. By the way, the Baltic Sea is part of the Atlantic Ocean, so technically I'd be right.

I also love how you use an ancient article that actually has no proof behind it for some type of floor crawling underwater vehicle. Ocean crawlers are very slow, so you'd have to fit that into your silly conspiracy somehow.

What conspiracy would this be? It is a current affairs news item that the sinking of the Estonia is being reinvestigated. This is a factual statement. Let me know if you have any objections and what they are.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

What conspiracy would this be? It is a current affairs news item that the sinking of the Estonia is being reinvestigated. This is a factual statement. Let me know if you have any objections and what they are.

The various ones you've tried to push over the years with zero evidence and zero credibility.