Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

I'm pretty sure most women (especially those who have previously been victims of male sexual predators) are, and have always been, uneasy about entering any enclosed area in which they will need to partially or fully undress, making them especially vulnerable, if it contains strange males who are bigger and stronger than they are. I don't think it's so much "Puritanical throwback" as basic animal instinct.

I get that. Fear of the unknown and its threat potential is very real.

For a guy, though, the threat potential is lower than in most places, yet I still have the overpowering feeling of wrongness and intrusion. Looking hard at it, I feel like it's mostly because I've been told all my life that this is the girls room, and that is the boys room, and it's very very wrong to cross over. It's pounded in more so than reasoned.

But as an adult, the crossing over became fairly common (women in the men's room, from my perspective), and unisex facilities were no big deal in practice. Thinking about it more, though, maybe the women were more uncomfortable and inconvenienced than it appeared, and were putting on a neutral face (considering the company) when they really strongly would have preferred the privacy?

Eta: I think where I end up is that I feel like we *should* be fine with sharing a restroom by now, being 21st century rational people without unnecessary hangups and all that. That we are maybe not collectively quite there yet is just a practical reality.

 

[Pixel42]

I get that. Fear of the unknown and its threat potential is very real.

For a guy, though, the threat potential is lower than in most places, yet I still have the overpowering feeling of wrongness and intrusion. Looking hard at it, I feel like it's mostly because I've been told all my life that this is the girls room, and that is the boys room, and it's very very wrong to cross over. It's pounded in more so than reasoned.

But as an adult, the crossing over became fairly common (women in the men's room, from my perspective), and unisex facilities were no big deal in practice. Thinking about it more, though, maybe the women were more uncomfortable and inconvenienced than it appeared, and were putting on a neutral face (considering the company) when they really strongly would have preferred the privacy?

Eta: I think where I end up is that I feel like we *should* be fine with sharing a restroom by now, being 21st century rational people without unnecessary hangups and all that. That we are maybe not collectively quite there yet is just a practical reality.

OK, two scenarios.

1. You're sitting in a locked cubicle [the sort of lock it would take you, and most other males, just a single kick to break, right?] in unisex facilities doing your business when two women come in. They don't realise you're there so they're talking girl talk, maybe mentioning periods or discussing a boy one has a crush on, some of which you might find a little embarrassing. You've obviously no reason at all to think you're in any danger from them, but you might still stay where you are until they've gone.

2. Imagine you're a rape victim or a twelve year old girl sitting in that cubicle when two men come in. [I know there are males contributing to this thread who are incapable of empathising with females, but I don't think you're one of them]. They don't realise you're there so they're talking men talk, maybe telling crude jokes or discussing the ... attractions ... of a woman they've just noticed, some of which you might find a little frightening. They're both bigger and stronger than you, you've plenty of reason to think you might be in danger from them, so you stay where you are until they've gone.

In neither scenario was the occupant of the cubicle in any actual danger. Such incidents change no crime statistics when facilities change from single sex to mixed sex. But the feelings of 'uneasiness' experienced by the cubicle occupants in the two scenarios are of an entirely different order. You know this, and that it's not due to "unnecessary hangups" but the actual, biological, differences between males and females. That's why you get that feeling of wrongness and intrusion.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

OK, two scenarios.

1. You're sitting in a locked cubicle [the sort of lock it would take you, and most other males, just a single kick to break, right?] in unisex facilities doing your business when two women come in. They don't realise you're there so they're talking girl talk, maybe mentioning periods or discussing a boy one has a crush on, some of which you might find a little embarrassing. You've obviously no reason at all to think you're in any danger from them, but you might still stay where you are until they've gone.

Why?

2. Imagine you're a rape victim or a twelve year old girl sitting in that cubicle when two men come in. [I know there are males contributing to this thread who are incapable of empathising with females, but I don't think you're one of them]. They don't realise you're there so they're talking men talk, maybe telling crude jokes or discussing the ... attractions ... of a woman they've just noticed, some of which you might find a little frightening. They're both bigger and stronger than you, you've plenty of reason to think you might be in danger from them, so you stay where you are until they've gone.

Why?

In neither scenario was the occupant of the cubicle in any actual danger. Such incidents change no crime statistics when facilities change from single sex to mixed sex. But the feelings of 'uneasiness' experienced by the cubicle occupants in the two scenarios are of an entirely different order. You know this, and that it's not due to "unnecessary hangups" but the actual, biological, differences between males and females. That's why you get that feeling of wrongness and intrusion.

We can all imagine bogeymen. The other day I was walking home at night alone and this group of black teenage boys were coming towards me...

 

[d4m10n]

Gender: The subjective feeling of self-association with maleness, femaleness or neither.

The problem I've got wrapping my head around this is that I see the first two options as plainly factual descriptors and the third as incredibly unlikely.

I do, however, experience a sense of which locker room (or other such space) that I'd fit in best, based on my appearance, and maybe that's part of what you're getting at.

 

[p0lka]

Interesting, but irrelevant. You're talking about social aspects - I'm talking about facts, evidence and observable reality


Nevertheless, it is reality. Its only weird if it doesn't comport with your beliefs


And?

And? We are the only animal in that list that can communicate and form an opinion about the labels, and we humans can't agree on it?
Why do you think it would go any better with the other animals If we could get their opinion?

 

[Thermal]

We can all imagine bogeymen. The other day I was walking home at night alone and this group of black teenage boys were coming towards me...

This is one of the things I get conflicted about. Women on this thread have survived sexual assault at the hands of men. It ain't no imaginary threat to them. OTOH, the odds are very slim that it will happen at any given time.

I've been jumped by black guys. I'm not unduly threatened by them, but it's definitely "on my radar" that it could happen again, but in fairness, that caution is extended to anyone with a pulse that's in range.

Thhere's a line in there somewhere between reasonable precautions and unreasonable ones. Which side is going to a possibly mixed toilet in public on?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

The problem I've got wrapping my head around this is that I see the first two options as plainly factual descriptors and the third as incredibly unlikely.

I do, however, experience a sense of which locker room (or other such space) that I'd fit in best, based on my appearance, and maybe that's part of what you're getting at.

My wife and I have talked about this and we each behave in ways that are fairly congruent with our biological sex, but neither of us feel male or female. We're both just feel like 'me'. I think for most cisgender people the 'neither' category could also have 'generally no feelings at all', or 'mostly invisible', because their gender identities and biological sexes match and are essentially two forces pushing in the same direction.

Maybe cognitive empathy (aka theory of mind) is important in developing a sense of gender, which could partly explain why young people on the autistic spectrum ended up being inappropriately treated at Tavistock.

 

[Thermal]

The problem I've got wrapping my head around this is that I see the first two options as plainly factual descriptors

Ok, that would be your sex ID, that you dont feel that strongly about. It is as you say, matching visually with similar others, without much subjectively internal input from you needed.

Gender ID, as I'm interpreting it, is more like knowing full and well that you physically line up with the boys based on factual descriptors,, but it feels as wrong as it would feel for you to try and line up with the ladies in your current frame of mind.

and the third as incredibly unlikely.

"Being recreationally difficult" is how I like to phrase it.

 

[smartcooky]

And? We are the only animal in that list that can communicate and form an opinion about the labels, and we humans can't agree on it?
Why do you think it would go any better with the other animals If we could get their opinion?

So we communicate... so what? That doesn't change the facts. I'm not seeing how this is even relevant.

 

[theprestige]

Should we allow transsexual men into male public toilets and/or changing rooms?

Should we allow transsexual women into female public toilets and/or changing rooms?

If your answers are different, please explain why.

I don't frame it that way.

Instead, I say that we should allow females to evict males from female public toilets and/or changing rooms. Likewise, we should allow males to evict females.

I think this covers all scenarios, by direct reference to biological sex, without having to consider gender identity, and without having to define additional terms.

Are your answers different from mine? If so, please explain why.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I don't frame it that way.

Instead, I say that we should allow females to evict males from female public toilets and/or changing rooms. Likewise, we should allow males to evict females.

I think this covers all scenarios, by direct reference to biological sex, without having to consider gender identity, and without having to define additional terms.

Are your answers different from mine? If so, please explain why.

As you may expect my answers are different. One of the reasons they are different is where are transsexuals supposed to go? Your non-solution expects them to play bigot lottery no matter which toilet they choose.

 

[theprestige]

As you may expect my answers are different. One of the reasons they are different is where are transsexuals supposed to go? Your non-solution expects them to play bigot lottery no matter which toilet they choose.

How does your answer avoid the bigot lottery?

 

[d4m10n]

try and line up with the ladies in your current frame of mind.

My current frame of mind is largely rooted in my current frame, though.

If I'd woken up this a.m. having undergone a Freaky Friday style body swap with the wife, then I'd definitely line up with the ladies out of basic courtesy to the gentlemen.

 

[smartcooky]

As you may expect my answers are different. One of the reasons they are different is where are transsexuals supposed to go? Your non-solution expects them to play bigot lottery no matter which toilet they choose.

Whether they identify as woman, man, male, female, non-binary, lesbian, gay, homosexual, queer, +, ++, two -spirit, furrie, attack helicopter, or any letter(s) of the alphabet, they use the facilities that are commensurate with their BIOLOGICAL SEX.
This is not difficult to understand.

 

[theprestige]

As you may expect my answers are different. One of the reasons they are different is where are transsexuals supposed to go? Your non-solution expects them to play bigot lottery no matter which toilet they choose.

While we're on the topic of bigotry, trans rights activists are some of the biggest bigots I know. Specifically, they're some of the most influential and effective misogynists in the West today. Worse than MGTOW. Worse even than incels. Even MAGA treats women better than TRA does.

 

[Thermal]

Whether they identify as woman, man, male, female, non-binary, lesbian, gay, homosexual, queer, +, ++, two -spirit, furrie, attack helicopter, or any letter(s) of the alphabet, they use the facilities that are commensurate with their BIOLOGICAL SEX.
This is not difficult to understand.

Also not agreed to.

 

[theprestige]

Also not agreed to.

Which part do you not agree to? That it's easy to understand?

 

[d4m10n]

they use the facilities that are commensurate with their BIOLOGICAL SEX...

not agreed...

I don't think it's a particularly pro-feminist plan to force passing trans men into women's spaces.

Aside from being a bit shorter, I expect they would trigger all the same anxieties in women as ordinary dudes do.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think it's a particularly pro-feminist plan to force passing trans men into women's spaces.

Aside from being a bit shorter, I expect they would trigger all the same anxieties in women as ordinary dudes do.

The debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right restroom for people who pass as the opposite sex.

 

[Thermal]

Which part do you not agree to? That it's easy to understand?

No, that the Proclamation of Smartcooky has any weight at all.

Eta: to endlessly restate the position with no justification is public masturbation. Which is ironic, considering the prevailing opinion on how improper that is.