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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

I am well aware of the splendid record in human rights of Eleanor Roosevelt. Unfortunately, the US has voted in a 34-times convicted felon, six-times Bankrupt, suspected Epstein-Maxwell enabler, Putin supporter as a morals devoid head of state. No sign of any nod to human rights in your government. Lucky AK and RS to be able to appeal to the ECHR at all.
There is at least one non sequitur in your post quoted above. That is the seeming link you make between the US head of government, "no sign of any nod to human rights in" the US government, and the ability of Knox and Sollecito to "appeal" (the preferred legal term is "apply") to the ECHR.

The past or current conduct of the US government with respect to human rights is not the topic of this thread.

Your broaching that topic appears to be an attempt to distract from the facts of the case, which are that the Italian CSC quashed Knox's first calunnia conviction, thereby abiding by the final ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy, but then the Italian courts violated Knox's rights again by re-trying and re-convicting her on the same charge using ambiguous evidence which the ECHR judgment identified as Knox's renunciation of her interrogation statements. Furthermore, the Italian courts justified this subterfuge by acknowledging the ECHR's view of the alleged evidence in their MR reasoning, but claiming a right to arbitrarily re-interpret that evidence as probative and decisive.

In Sollecito's case, the Italian courts hearing his request for compensation denied that request on the grounds that he was negligent under interrogation, when at a minimum he had been unlawfully denied counsel during the interrogation. There was a further unlawful implication or statement in the MR of the judgment that Sollecito has been guilty of involvement in the murder/rape of Kercher. Sollecito has applied to the ECHR to declare that his rights were violated by the compensation court's verdict and motivation report. The case, Sollecito v. Italy 1157/18 was Communicated to Italy by the ECHR on 1 February 2022:

 
I would truly appreciate any comments from readers here on my hypothetical example.
I'm hopeful that Strasbourg will acknowledge the lates calunnia thing as unfair. But after dealing with a court this is an assumption and not a prediction.
In the meantime, I'm interested in Sollecito's decision, which, while not identical to Knox's case, is certainly related to it. Therefore, I imagine the judges will decide on the admissibility of Knox's second plea only after a decision on Sollecito. Unfortunately, I don't remember where or how the reasons for denying compensation could be found, but as far as I remember, one of the arguments was that he would have been compensated if he confirmed the judge's finding that Knox was "there."
(This Calunnia nonsense is monstrous anyway: 1. I'd like to know if a real "Calunnia criminal" in Italy has ever served three full years for this. 2. Guede's reduction from 30 to 16 years was due, among other things, or perhaps primarily, to his naming "the others." 3. In their blind error, the highest judges are, so to speak, retrospectively inciting someone who wouldn't exchange this untruth for concessions or a deal to commit this very crime.)
I remember how, during the 2016 communication phase of the Knox case, the judges prominently addressed the Boninsegna Report, which was still almost fresh off the press. It was encouraging that an inherently bureaucratic apparatus like any court is capable of responding quickly to a recently submitted document. Therefore, it is one of my dreams that Sollecito's team will supplement their submission with Knox's latest conviction as information.
 
The merits courts (Massei and Nencini) rejected Professor Taglibracci's arguments in this and preferred that of Dr. Stefanoni's.
Thus demonstrating that the Massei and Nencini courts did not properly review, with the aid of, for example, court-appointed independent experts, the rather technical aspects of DNA profile analysis, among other topics important to the DNA testing, such as the quality of the collection of the evidence samples. However, the Hellmann Court of Appeal, which under Italian law functioned as another merits court, had commissioned court-appointed experts who provided the technical expertise needed for the final judgment of the Marasca CSC panel.
 
I'm hopeful that Strasbourg will acknowledge the lates calunnia thing as unfair. But after dealing with a court this is an assumption and not a prediction.
In the meantime, I'm interested in Sollecito's decision, which, while not identical to Knox's case, is certainly related to it. Therefore, I imagine the judges will decide on the admissibility of Knox's second plea only after a decision on Sollecito. Unfortunately, I don't remember where or how the reasons for denying compensation could be found, but as far as I remember, one of the arguments was that he would have been compensated if he confirmed the judge's finding that Knox was "there."
(This Calunnia nonsense is monstrous anyway: 1. I'd like to know if a real "Calunnia criminal" in Italy has ever served three full years for this. 2. Guede's reduction from 30 to 16 years was due, among other things, or perhaps primarily, to his naming "the others." 3. In their blind error, the highest judges are, so to speak, retrospectively inciting someone who wouldn't exchange this untruth for concessions or a deal to commit this very crime.)
I remember how, during the 2016 communication phase of the Knox case, the judges prominently addressed the Boninsegna Report, which was still almost fresh off the press. It was encouraging that an inherently bureaucratic apparatus like any court is capable of responding quickly to a recently submitted document. Therefore, it is one of my dreams that Sollecito's team will supplement their submission with Knox's latest conviction as information.
I'm confident, based on ECHR case law, that the ECHR would find the re-trial and re-conviction of Knox a violation of Convention Article 6.1 (fair trial violation) with 6.2 (violation of the presumption of innocence) because of the blatant way the MR states that it is re-interpreting the ambiguous statements in Knox's Memoriale.

For Sollecito v. Italy, review of the Communication to Italy is useful. Here's the introductory information (Google translation; my emphases by bolding and intalics):

The application concerns the dismissal of the claim for compensation for the pre-trial detention of the applicant, accused of participation in the crimes of sexual violence and murder of a British national. At the material time, the applicant was the boyfriend of A.K., the victim's roommate. On 2 November 2007, the police went to the victim's home and, after forcing the door to her bedroom, discovered her body lying on the floor. During the following days, the applicant was questioned twice and, in the absence of a lawyer, answered questions from the judicial police, in accordance with Article 351 of the Code of Criminal Procedure relating to the acquisition of summary information. He was questioned, in particular, about the sequence of events and A.K.'s movements during the hours preceding the murder. On 6 November, the prosecutor ordered the arrest of the applicant, A.K. and a third person, and he brought charges of sexual assault and murder against them (for further details, see Knox v. Italy, no. 76577/13, 24 January 2019).

Following his final acquittal, the applicant filed a claim for compensation for "unfair" pre-trial detention under Article 314 of the Code of Criminal Procedure. The domestic courts dismissed the claim, finding that, through his conduct and contradictory statements, the applicant had contributed through gross negligence to arousing suspicion against him and thus causing his detention. In particular, the grounds cited the statements made by the applicant before his indictment, which were unusable in the criminal proceedings under Article 63 of the Code of Criminal Procedure. In these statements, the applicant recounted in detail the events of the previous day, in particular A.K.'s behavior and movements during the day before the discovery of the victim's body. The domestic courts also referred to certain passages in the judgments of the courts on the merits, relating to the assessment of the applicant's criminal responsibility.
Here are the questions to Italy (and secondly to Sollecito):

1. Was the challenge to the applicant's right to compensation for "unjust" detention heard fairly, as required by Article 6 § 1 of the Convention (López Ribalda and Others v. Spain [GC], nos. 1874/13 and 8567/13, § 150, 17 October 2019)?

In particular, taking into account Article 63 of the Code of Criminal Procedure and the relevant domestic case-law (see, among others, judgments of the Court of Cassation nos. 3620/2008, 38181/2009, 49771/2013, 17845/2014 and 882/2018), were the statements made by the applicant before his indictment admissible by the courts hearing the claim for compensation for "unjust" pre-trial detention? How were these statements assessed by these same courts?

2. Was the right to the presumption of innocence guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 of the Convention respected in this case with regard to the applicant (Allen v. the United Kingdom [GC], no. 25424/09, § 94, ECHR 2013; Vlieeland Boddy and Marcelo Lanni v. Spain, nos. 53465/11 and 9634/12, §§ 38-49, 16 February 2016)?

In particular, given that the Court of Cassation examined the arguments raised by the applicant in his appeal, do the grounds provided by the high court cast doubt on the applicant's innocence? Do they refer to the applicant's possible criminal liability or to the persistent suspicions against him?
----
Looking at the above Communication text, it is very clear that a major question of the ECHR is whether or not the violation of CPP Article 63, which made Sollecito's interrogation statements inadmissible during the criminal trial, also made them inadmissible during the hearing for compensation for unjust detention. Based on ECHR case law, when the request for compensation is part of the Code of Criminal Procedure, the request for compensation must definitively be considered an extension of the criminal proceedings, and all the relevant laws of the Code of Criminal Procedure must apply to it. So CPP Article 63 must apply, and his interrogation statements are inadmissible to the request fro compensation hearing, and he must be compensated since the alleged negligence disappears. At least, that is how I see the case unfold, whenever that will be.

I believe that the ECHR will find against Italy for the violation of Convention Article 6.2 as well.
 
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Once again, Vixen's mindreading gift enlightens us all on what 436 million Americans think.


FTFY
Very few cases go to trial in the USA. In the UK and Europe plea deals are illegal. So of course, there will be a proliferation of Innocence Projects in the USA because justice was never seen to be done. Obviously, I am referring to the US as a society. Tell me, do you have a Court of Human Rights, equivalent to the ECHR?
 
I was rather thinking of 'hate preacher' Hamzu with the hook.
It's HamzA.

The ECHR does have teeth, for example, it could - and did - issue emergency judicial orders to stop a state (i.e., the UK) from summarily deporting an asylum seeker off to Rwanda. The problem is, so many convicted criminals use the ECHR as another court of appeal. In the case of Knox and Sollecito, you don't think they give a toss about human rights and a false-positive HIV result or some cop making them accidentally incriminate themself. No, their sole aim is to cash in on their acquittal and to further the fake narrative. Knox criminally tried to subvert justice by pointing police at Lumumba, to cover up for Guede [this is official] and then thought it 'd be great for her new career as an 'exoneree' if she could get this declared a breach of human rights, demand €2m in compensation and at the same time use it as part of her book and tv series about her "MOJ" [sic]. These two couldn't care less about humans right. The ECHR's pending applications are full of applications from people like these, who are just trying their luck, and delaying the genuine cases of human rights abuses.
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A point which, apparently, you're unable to explain even though I specifically asked you to. Noted.
I was referring to compare and contrast university laboratory scientists with crime scene forensic scientists. It is irrelevant that Kohberger's crime scene differs from AK/RS/RG's. That is the point: every crime scene is unique with its own limitations. Of course the courts should get to decide whether a DNA sample is relevant or not, Some guy was convicted on a fingerprint from decades ago. A guy in England was convicted of murder because of jumper fibres retrieved decades later. Likewise, the killer of Stephen Lawrence. Truth Calls claims that the evidence must reach his personal standards of criteria is just a ruse to deny the full DNA profile of Sollecito on Kercher's bra clasp; on the inner bend of the the clasp. Waffling about RFU's doesn't fool the Italians.
 
I am well aware of the splendid record in human rights of Eleanor Roosevelt. Unfortunately, the US has voted in a 34-times convicted felon, six-times Bankrupt, suspected Epstein-Maxwell enabler, Putin supporter as a morals devoid head of state. No sign of any nod to human rights in your government. Lucky AK and RS to be able to appeal to the ECHR at all.
Your post just proves the old saying that "even a broken clock is right twice a day".
 
I was rather thinking of 'hate preacher' Hamzu with the hook. The UK was handtied from doing anything with this chap because he took out an Article 8 edict from the ECHR, citing 'the right to family life'. Yet as soon as he touched down in the USA, he was carted off to jail. The ECHR does have teeth, for example, it could - and did - issue emergency judicial orders to stop a state (i.e., the UK) from summarily deporting an asylum seeker off to Rwanda. The problem is, so many convicted criminals use the ECHR as another court of appeal. In the case of Knox and Sollecito, you don't think they give a toss about human rights and a false-positive HIV result or some cop making them accidentally incriminate themself. No, their sole aim is to cash in on their acquittal and to further the fake narrative. Knox criminally tried to subvert justice by pointing police at Lumumba, to cover up for Guede [this is official] and then thought it 'd be great for her new career as an 'exoneree' if she could get this declared a breach of human rights, demand €2m in compensation and at the same time use it as part of her book and tv series about her "MOJ" [sic]. These two couldn't care less about humans right. The ECHR's pending applications are full of applications from people like these, who are just trying their luck, and delaying the genuine cases of human rights abuses.
Your post was still incredibly insulting and bigoted, no matter how much nonsense you throw at it.

No, their sole aim is to cash in on their acquittal and to further the fake narrative.
Well, I realize you still suffer from the delusion of thinking you can read other people's minds, but I'm pretty sure the only thing both Amanda and Raffaele were interested in was having their names and records cleared. If you think Amanda was more than happy to give up four years of her life and have her family fall millions into debt so she can make a few bucks speaking at the occasional Innocence Project event, then you're even more confused than I thought.

No, Amanda wound up implicating Lumumba because (1) the police believed Lumumba was involved due to the SMS exchange and (2) because they violated Amanda's rights while coercing her into implicating Lumumba. But that's OK, you just keep on hating... you do it well.

The fact that Amanda speaks at so many Innocence Project events suggests to me that she is far more concerned about human rights, even those of suspected criminals, than you are, as you seem to be oblivious and indifferent towards the human rights violations Amanda was subjected to, as confirmed by both the ISC and ECHR.
 
The merits courts (Massei and Nencini) rejected Professor Taglibracci's arguments in this and preferred that of Dr. Stefanoni's.
I don't give a crap what Massei and Nencini ruled, and that has nothing to do with the fact that both of them were overturned and are now irrelevant.

No, it has EVERYTHING to do with 12 (that's TWELVE) alleles, well above 50 RFU, found in the DNA sample yet suppressed in the RTIGF report. That is a clear case of suspect centric analysis, and you know that, which is why after three attempts your still unwilling to admit that which everyone else knows to be true.
 
I was referring to compare and contrast university laboratory scientists with crime scene forensic scientists.
Why? As I stated already, Truth Calls' post was not about that. He was discussing Stefanoni's suspect-centered analysis and her dropping of any alleles (even those with peak heights of 50 RFU's) which you still refuse to address.

It is irrelevant that Kohberger's crime scene differs from AK/RS/RG's.
No, it has everything to do with it.

That is the point: every crime scene is unique with its own limitations.
That has not been disputed.

Of course the courts should get to decide whether a DNA sample is relevant or not, Some guy was convicted on a fingerprint from decades ago. A guy in England was convicted of murder because of jumper fibres retrieved decades later. Likewise, the killer of Stephen Lawrence.
What the courts do not get to do is change forensic science facts which is exactly what Massei did when he declared Knox's footprints had to be in blood because "what else could they be" when that directly contradicted the negative TMB tests and Stefanoni's own testimony that TMB negative "means no blood is present". And that's one of the many reasons Massei was annulled.
Truth Calls claims that the evidence must reach his personal standards of criteria is just a ruse to deny the full DNA profile of Sollecito on Kercher's bra clasp; on the inner bend of the the clasp. Waffling about RFU's doesn't fool the Italians.
He never said any such thing. Once again, you think you can twist what people say and no one will call you out on it.

Speaking of twisting what people say, I'm still waiting for you to quote and cite me ever saying the following:
Vixen said:
BTW you claim any DNA collected after 46 days is not permissible. Says who? You?

Instead of resorting to your usual tactic of just ignoring questions you don't like the answers to, why don't you try something new and just admit that I never said anything like that?
 
I don't give a crap what Massei and Nencini ruled, and that has nothing to do with the fact that both of them were overturned and are now irrelevant.

No, it has EVERYTHING to do with 12 (that's TWELVE) alleles, well above 50 RFU, found in the DNA sample yet suppressed in the RTIGF report. That is a clear case of suspect centric analysis, and you know that, which is why after three attempts your still unwilling to admit that which everyone else knows to be true.
It's the "Ignore it and everyone will forget all about it" tactic.
 
Your post was still incredibly insulting and bigoted, no matter how much nonsense you throw at it.


Well, I realize you still suffer from the delusion of thinking you can read other people's minds, but I'm pretty sure the only thing both Amanda and Raffaele were interested in was having their names and records cleared. If you think Amanda was more than happy to give up four years of her life and have her family fall millions into debt so she can make a few bucks speaking at the occasional Innocence Project event, then you're even more confused than I thought.

No, Amanda wound up implicating Lumumba because (1) the police believed Lumumba was involved due to the SMS exchange and (2) because they violated Amanda's rights while coercing her into implicating Lumumba. But that's OK, you just keep on hating... you do it well.

The fact that Amanda speaks at so many Innocence Project events suggests to me that she is far more concerned about human rights, even those of suspected criminals, than you are, as you seem to be oblivious and indifferent towards the human rights violations Amanda was subjected to, as confirmed by both the ISC and ECHR.
The final judgement and the facts proven at trial proves Knox was at the crime scene when Kercher was killed and did wash her blood from her hands. She did accuse Lumumba to cover up for Guede and the burglary was staged. This is the proven findings of fact by the trial court, the appeal court and the supreme court.
 
Very few cases go to trial in the USA. In the UK and Europe plea deals are illegal. So of course, there will be a proliferation of Innocence Projects in the USA because justice was never seen to be done. Obviously, I am referring to the US as a society. Tell me, do you have a Court of Human Rights, equivalent to the ECHR?

.... The ECHR does have teeth, for example, it could - and did - issue emergency judicial orders to stop a state (i.e., the UK) from summarily deporting an asylum seeker off to Rwanda. The problem is, so many convicted criminals use the ECHR as another court of appeal. In the case of Knox and Sollecito, you don't think they give a toss about human rights and a false-positive HIV result or some cop making them accidentally incriminate themself. No, their sole aim is to cash in on their acquittal and to further the fake narrative. Knox criminally tried to subvert justice by pointing police at Lumumba, to cover up for Guede [this is official] and then thought it 'd be great for her new career as an 'exoneree' if she could get this declared a breach of human rights, demand €2m in compensation and at the same time use it as part of her book and tv series about her "MOJ" [sic]. These two couldn't care less about humans right. The ECHR's pending applications are full of applications from people like these, who are just trying their luck, and delaying the genuine cases of human rights abuses.
Vixen, you seem to have hilariously contradictory views on the ECHR as a court of human rights.

You can read about the US court systems if you have any questions about them - there are double systems, state and federal, so if a question of a violation of civil - human - US Constitutional rights emerges, there are five levels of appeal above a first-instance state court. There is no barrier to a private individual (or organization) filing an appeal to the US Supreme Court after a case is decided by a US Court of Appeals. Furthermore, first instance acquittals and all dismissals with prejudice are final In contrast, in Italy, there are only two levels of appeal above the first instance court, but cases may continually cycle between the Court of Appeal and the CSC, as prosecutors have the authority to appeal acquittals from first instance and appeal courts. In Italy, no individual or organization has the right to file a case with the Italian Constitutional Court; only a judge, the Italian government, or a regional government has that right. Italian courts allow for "fast-track trials" (abbreviated trials) which are similar to plea deals in the US - that is, a very short trial resulting in a reduced sentence - although no one may plead "guilty" in an Italian trial.

Contrary to your absurd statement that the ECHR schedule is clogged with cases from guilty persons "trying their luck" (although it's well-known, even to the PGP, that the ECHR is not a fourth-instance court that can acquit persons, nor does it generally award large sums for just compensation), the ECHR is clogged with cases from a few of the ECHR member states with relatively dysfunctional justice systems as well as from the former ECHR member, Russia.

On 31 December 2024, the states with the largest number of pending cases before the ECHR were:

Turkiye 21,600 cases 35.8% of all pending cases
Russia 8,150 cases 13.5%
Ukraine 7,700 cases 12.7%
Romania 3,850 cases 6.4%
Greece 2,600 cases 4.3%
Italy 2,150 cases 3.6%
Poland 2,050 cases 3.4%
Azerbaijan 1,950 cases 3.2%
Moldova 1,150 cases 1.9%
Slovenia 1,000 cases 1.0%
37 States 8,150 cases 13.5%

The average is 220.27 cases each state for the 37 lowest-case states; in contrast, the average for the top ten-highest case states is 5220 cases for each state.

Source: https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/stats-pending-2025-bil
 
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