Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[d4m10n]

Sandra has zero right to be there at all.

She surely does in California.

Merager was found to be not guilty because... their ID says "F", and they're a transgender person, therefore they did nothing wrong.

 

[Ziggurat]

She surely does in California.

Sure, but I was describing how I think things should be, not what they are like in a state that thought it was ok to stick male rapists in a women's prison.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I did not claim that there not very effeminate males nor extremely masculine females (nor have I seen anyone currently commenting in the thread claim that). Yes, there are people who strongly identify with behaviors associated with the other sex and/or desire to be that sex. We (as a society) can help that by trying to cut down on reinforcements of those stereotypes (and reduce homophobia). What will not help is affirming that they were "born in the wrong body" and will be accepted as the other sex if they make greater attempts at mimicry.

Are okay with driving people to suicide because the gender identity they want to be treated as doesn't match their biological sex?

Or perhaps you would prefer such people be committed to psychiatric hospitals for the rest of their lives just so you aren't inconvenienced by their existence.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

No, that's stupid. The issue is not whether or not both sexes can use the same space equally (though I will note in passing that women tend to have a more difficult time using urinals). The issue is that women are vulnerable in bathrooms and changing rooms, and the differences between the sexes means that segregating males and females when they are in this state reduces risk and social friction. All of this has been dealt with in depth already. And you challenging this now is just a fringe reset.

There's nothing odd about it. There are multiple contributing factors, which have also been dealt with extensively. Some of the major factors: trans identifying females have a much higher rate of passing as male. Females do not pose the same physical risk to males as males pose to females. And female sexual predators don't follow the same patterns that male sexual predators follow. Female sexual predators have no incentive to pose as males in order to gain access to victims, but the same is not true for male sexual predators.

If this were all motivated by anti-trans animus, you'd expect people to be just as upset about the trans identifying females. But they aren't, because it isn't all about anti-trans animus. There's an actual problem here, and it's not a symmetric one. People don't really care where trans identifying females go because, get this, males and females aren't the same.

ETA: oh, and you haven't posited a single rational argument for why gender should supersede sex.

No, it's not stupid, it just doesn't fit with your no doubt conservative upbringing and model of how the world should be.

If you want to tackle male violence, address the causes of male violence.

 

[smartcooky]

Watching this interview last night with Sall Grover (Giggle v Tickle) the host was former Australian deputy Prime Minister John Anderson.


In addressing the argument as to why we can't have a carve out for transgender identified men, she correctly pointed out the intention is to exclude only the "bad ones" is flawed, because when ANY biological male wants to force their way into a women's only space, we already know we're dealing with a bad one.

Its an interview is really worth watching to see the sort of ridiculous attacks this woman is facing just for voicing objective scientific reality. The court imposed AUD$10,000 in costs on her for laughing at a joke, and speaking objective truth merely for calling Tickle "him". Tickle wants that upped to AUD$100,000. She illustrates how the T in LBGTQ+ has turned on the LGB part of that collective. Those here who support the idea of transgender self-identified men invading women's spaces will probably find this interview too confronting for them - reality could topple their precarious worldview

In the end, Sall may have to register her "Giggle" app in the UK, and geo-block Australia, and that is ridiculous - that is how ideologically captured Australian governance, media and the judiciary has become.

 

[smartcooky]

Are okay with driving people to suicide because the gender identity they want to be treated as doesn't match their biological sex?

Looks like you're still believing the Stonewall School Report of 2017. You do understand that the claim of transgender people being at risk of higher rates of suicide is a fiction, created by TRAs and amplified by the captured media, right?

These completely debunk the Stonewall report

Suicide facts and myths

The threat that children may commit suicide if parents do not support their social and medical transition is not born out by the facts.

www.transgendertrend.com

Dispelling the suicide myth

For almost ten years, lobby groups have been promoting the idea that for gender-confused children there are only two options: transition or die. The claim

sex-matters.org

The claim of transgender suicide ideation is a myth

 

[Ziggurat]

No, it's not stupid, it just doesn't fit with your no doubt conservative upbringing and model of how the world should be.

It's got nothing to do with how the world should be, and everything to do with how the world actually is.

If you want to tackle male violence, address the causes of male violence.

Again, I'm not going to agree to stop protecting against male violence before you demonstrate that you even CAN end male violence. Because it's not enough that you just reduce the amount of male violence.

And you have no idea how to actually do any of that. The only ideas you have, even if you manage to accomplish them, will at best still just reduce male violence, not end it. No society has ever eliminated male violence. No society probably ever will. Because the ultimate cause of male violence (and female violence, for that matter) is human nature. I know a lot of liberals and progressives think that you can change human nature, but you cannot.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are okay with driving people to suicide because the gender identity they want to be treated as doesn't match their biological sex?

Are people actually being driven to suicide because they can't use the bathroom of their choice? Where's the evidence?

You want me to solve male violence instead of keep males out of women's spaces. If suicide is your justification for that, how about you solve depression before you force males into women's spaces?

 

[Louden Wilde]

Are okay with driving people to suicide because the gender identity they want to be treated as doesn't match their biological sex?

Or perhaps you would prefer such people be committed to psychiatric hospitals for the rest of their lives just so you aren't inconvenienced by their existence.

Your argumentation is terrible - I've not suggested either. See smartcooky's response. And please think. Transition is not going to work for most because they are not going to be accepted as the other sex, and may do significant damage to themselves and quality of life (via surgeries, hormones, lack of acceptance).

 

[d4m10n]

Sure, but I was describing how I think things should be...

Much like when I say North Koreans have a right to free expression.

 

[smartcooky]

Are people actually being driven to suicide because they can't use the bathroom of their choice? Where's the evidence?

You want me to solve male violence instead of keep males out of women's spaces. If suicide is your justification for that, how about you solve depression before you force males into women's spaces?

You forget that transpeople (who make up less than 0.5% of the population) are "ThE mOsT oPpReSsEd GrOuP iN tHe WhOLe WiDe WorLd".... the rest of the 99.5% of the population are expected to bend and twist themselves into pretzels to accommodate these poor widdle fragile snowflakes who only want somewhere to pee!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Looks like you're still believing the Stonewall School Report of 2017. You do understand that the claim of transgender people being at risk of higher rates of suicide is a fiction, created by TRAs and amplified by the captured media, right?

These completely debunk the Stonewall report

Suicide facts and myths

The threat that children may commit suicide if parents do not support their social and medical transition is not born out by the facts.

www.transgendertrend.com

Dispelling the suicide myth

For almost ten years, lobby groups have been promoting the idea that for gender-confused children there are only two options: transition or die. The claim

sex-matters.org

The claim of transgender suicide ideation is a myth

I take your extremist websites and I respond with JAMA:

Of the total sample of 9861, 52 (0.53%) identified as TGD; demographic data can be found in Table 1. Past 12-month and lifetime major depressive episode, generalized anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, social phobia, substance use disorder, suicide ideation, suicide plan, and suicide attempts were higher in TGD respondents compared with cisgender respondents (eg, lifetime prevalence of depression among cisgender: 13.7% [95% CI, 12.9%-14.6%] vs TGD: 63.7% [95% CI, 46.6%-78.0%]; adjusted rate ratio, 2.78 [95% CI, 2.16-3.57]) (Table 2). After adjusting for confounders, the risk of all 12-month and past-year mental disorders, substance use disorder, and suicide ideation were higher in TGD respondents compared with cisgender participants. The risk of lifetime suicide plan and attempts was significantly higher in TGD respondents. Alcohol use disorder did not differ between the groups (past 12 months or lifetime).

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You forget that transpeople (who make up less than 0.5% of the population) are "ThE mOsT oPpReSsEd GrOuP iN tHe WhOLe WiDe WorLd".... the rest of the 99.5% of the population are expected to bend and twist themselves into pretzels to accommodate these poor widdle fragile snowflakes who only want somewhere to pee!

Really? You think that accommodating ~0.5% (actually ~0.25% as no one is getting hysterical about transsexual men) living their lives as their preferred gender requires the other 99.5% to 'twist themselves into pretzels'? How do people have to go out of their way to help transsexual women? How much physical effort do they have to expend? How much money does it cost them over a lifetime? Compare that to the alternative: lifetime treatment for depression and anxiety with periods of time in psychiatric facilities and long periods of unemployment.

I dread to think how you and many of the other people in this thread would have responded to a son who came out as transsexual. Can you even imagine yourselves treating your own children with such little empathy as you demonstrate over and over in this thread?

 

[Manger Douse]

How do people have to go out of their way to help transsexual women?

Women are disenfranchised and put at an increased risk of sexual assault. For you as a man, probably nothing

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Women are disenfranchised and put at an increased risk of sexual assault

What are your thoughts on racial profiling?

ETA: I ask because I suspect most of you believe it is a good idea and should support it. It would be particularly interesting seeing anyone try to argue why racial profiling is wrong but profiling transgender people is the right thing to do.

 

[smartcooky]

I take your extremist fact-based websites

FTFY

and I respond with JAMA:

I love it when an opponent in a debate destroys their own argument with a link to a study (one they clearly haven't read) and in the first sentence of the introduction too...

​

"Marginalized populations, such as people who identify as transgender and gender diverse (TGD), carry a disproportionately high burden of mental disorders, compared with the general population"​

Since the claim by you, and other TRAs, is that being transgender is not a mental disorder, this pretty much rips the rug out from under your arguments. If you check with the reliable, reality-based sources I linked in post#10846, you'll find this...

​

“People with gender dysphoria, especially young people, have a high incidence of co-occurring psychiatric diagnoses, self-harm behaviors, and suicide attempts compared to the general population. Co-occurring psychiatric diagnoses among people with gender dysphoria are therefore a factor that needs to be considered more closely during investigation.​

Suicide mortality rates are higher among people with gender dysphoria compared to the general population. At the same time, people with gender dysphoria who commit suicide have a very high rate of co-occurring serious psychiatric diagnoses, which in themselves sharply increase risks of suicide. Therefore, it is not possible to ascertain to what extent gender dysphoria alone contributes to suicide, since these psychiatric diagnoses often precede suicide.”​

Put simply, it is far more likely its the mental illness that is the cause of suicide ideation, not the fact these kids are transgender. It is a fact that suicide rates for transgender kids, and suicide rates for non-transgender kids with mental illness, are so close to being the same, they are statistically indistinguishable.

Further, would you like to know which transgender kids are at the most risk of suicide ideation... its the ones who have been fed the cocktail of drugs and puberty blockers! That's right, the very people who are supposed to be "fixed" by these drugs are more likely to commit suicide. That evidence comes from the harrowing stories of kids who have de-transitioned - they feel let down by a system that ENCOURAGED them to transition with drugs, instead of counselling them and letting them grow out of it.

If you are paying any attention at all, this should be a big clue for you. When you treat mental illness with puberty blockers, IT DOES NOT WORK!

 

[Pixel42]

For you as a man, probably nothing

Maybe he should ask the female visitors to a high security prison who recently found themselves being strip searched by an obviously male security guard - despite the prison's stated policy that female visitors would only be strip searched by female guards - and, when they objected, were told if they didn't STFU they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

And no one here is saying profiling transgender people is the right thing to do.

 

[smartcooky]

What are your thoughts on racial profiling?

ETA: I ask because I suspect most of you believe it is a good idea and should support it. It would be particularly interesting seeing anyone try to argue why racial profiling is wrong but profiling transgender people is the right thing to do.

Ah, the old "race" canard TRAs desperately cling to when they're cornered and have no other way out.

 

[lionking]

What are your thoughts on racial profiling?

ETA: I ask because I suspect most of you believe it is a good idea and should support it. It would be particularly interesting seeing anyone try to argue why racial profiling is wrong but profiling transgender people is the right thing to do.

You know, you would be far better off not insulting people you don’t know.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Maybe he should ask the female visitors to a high security prison who recently found themselves being strip searched by an obviously male security guard - despite the prison's stated policy that female visitors would only be strip searched by female guards - and, when they objected, were told if they didn't STFU they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

And no one here is saying profiling transgender people is the right thing to do.

That is precisely what you and others are saying the right thing to do is. You are taking statistics about a group and advocate taking action against individuals that share characteristics with that group. That is the very definition of profiling. Again, I suggest you vote Reform at the next election. They love profiling particular groups.