Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

May I suggest you find a TRA sub-forum on reddit and post there? I'm not and never have been a TRA.
I didn’t say you were. That should have been obvious by the fact that I said they would oppose you. The relevance is that they are an obstacle to implementing your ideas.
I don't have the answers to those questions because I'm not an expert in the treatment of trans people.
Of course. You don’t actually know what solutions would work, but your convinced they must exist because reasons.
However, I think what might be more important is an assessment of the individual's psychological characteristics.
Do you understand why evaluating that at scale is a problem?

No, probably not. That’s not the right kind of nuance for you.
 
Once again, you don’t get to demand we don’t take precautions against male violence on the grounds that we aren’t doing enough to stop it. No. That’s not acceptable.

I’m not opposed to doing any of that. But in the meantime (be a none of that works fast even in best case scenario), you don’t get to deprive women of their protections. It’s not like depriving women of their protections will even help you accomplish any of this. Nor have you demonstrated that your socialist utopia would actually eliminate the need for protections for women.

The arrogance here is astounding.

No one here is arguing against any of those things. But doing all those things isn’t a substitute for protecting women from male violence. You’re trying to substitute your own hobby horse for an issue other people care about on the grounds that you don’t, and the world doesn’t work that way. You are engaged in your own simplistic black and white thinking.
You argue against those things all the time. If your posts are a true reflection of what you believe then you almost certainly vote for politicians that actively reduce funding for those things. At least be honest with yourself.
 
May I suggest you find a TRA sub-forum on reddit and post there? I'm not and never have been a TRA.

I don't have the answers to those questions because I'm not an expert in the treatment of trans people. However, I think what might be more important is an assessment of the individual's psychological characteristics.
You may not identify as a TRA but you have fallen for their propaganda. The fact that you seem to think that this is about a tiny number of people who are distressed about their sex and have transitioned and want some accommodations made for them as exceptions demonstrates this.
 
You suggested something totally unworkable, and when I pointed out why it was unworkable you dodged and shifted topics. If you think your answer is workable you are revealing that you know nothing about this debate.
It wasn't an unworkable suggestion and what you replied with was a load of TRA twaddle.
 
It wasn't an unworkable suggestion and what you replied with was a load of TRA twaddle.
The only actual suggestion I've seen from you is GRCs. But you don't actually know how to implement them in a way that will achieve whatever goal it is you want to achieve (or any way at all, in fact). Nor have you even specified what that goal really is.

Should Isla Bryson be given a GRC? Should Misty Hill? Why or why not?
 
It wasn't an unworkable suggestion and what you replied with was a load of TRA twaddle.
It is unworkable because the first goal of the modern TRA movement was to remove all gatekeeping requirements for a GRC, going to politicians directly, avoiding media attention and suppressing debate by smearing critics as transphobes and destroying their lives and careers. They almost succeeded and only failed because a few people stood up to them at enormous personal cost. Then when a movement formed to oppose this, TRAs framed it as an attempt by the far-right to take away existing rights (which you have uncritically swallowed). There is no way that TRAs will ever accept gatekeeping requirements for a GRC or that access to facilities is contingent on having a GRC.

Aside from this nobody will know whether anyone has a GRC anymore than they will know their gender identity. The outcome is still the same, remove the right of women to object to all males in female spaces because they might have a GRC.
 
You may not identify as a TRA but you have fallen for their propaganda. The fact that you seem to think that this is about a tiny number of people who are distressed about their sex and have transitioned and want some accommodations made for them as exceptions demonstrates this.
I don't believe I have fallen for the propaganda from either side. I think the TRA lot are just as or more extreme than you guys!
 
It is unworkable because the first goal of the modern TRA movement was to remove all gatekeeping requirements for a GRC, going to politicians directly, avoiding media attention and suppressing debate by smearing critics as transphobes and destroying their lives and careers. They almost succeeded and only failed because a few people stood up to them at enormous personal cost. Then when a movement formed to oppose this, TRAs framed it as an attempt by the far-right to take away existing rights (which you have uncritically swallowed). There is no way that TRAs will ever accept gatekeeping requirements for a GRC or that access to facilities is contingent on having a GRC.

Aside from this nobody will know whether anyone has a GRC anymore than they will know their gender identity. The outcome is still the same, remove the right of women to object to all males in female spaces because they might have a GRC.
That's like saying laws against theft are unworkable because the first goal of thieves is to break into your house.

Who cares what TRA extremists claim they will or will not accept? I think both sides have been co-opted for political advantage, with most trans people ignored and feeling more afraid and bemused.
 
I can accept that claim.

But your position still seems entirely unworkable. I've voiced several objections to it, I don't think you've addressed any of my concerns.
Do you believe GRCs could work in principle? If not then there is no point in discussing them further.
 
As a recognised way for trans people to verify they have been through a regulated assessment and treatment program.
And what does that do? Does that give them access to bathrooms? Changing rooms? Rape crisis centers?
People who make it through the assessment and treatment program.
What assessment? What treatment? And how are these going to be regulated?

It doesn't seem like you've actually given this much thought.
 
And what does that do? Does that give them access to bathrooms? Changing rooms? Rape crisis centers?
Where should transsexual women toilet in public?

Where should transsexual women get changed?

Where should transsexual women go to get help if they have been raped?

Are you willing to have any of 'your tax dollars' fund any additional services for transsexual people who have been raped or need to toilet or change clothes in public?
What assessment? What treatment? And how are these going to be regulated?

It doesn't seem like you've actually given this much thought.
The same way all medical services are regulated, indirectly by the state by people with appropriate expertise.
 
Where should transsexual women toilet in public?
If they pass, in the women's bathroom. If they don't, in the men's. That will be true for most sex segregation, but note that it's a lot harder to pass in contexts where you will be naked. For sports, no male should compete in the female category.
The same way all medical services are regulated, indirectly by the state by people with appropriate expertise.
That's not really an answer. And given the manifest failure we have already seen from "experts" in the field, I do not trust ANY of them to be deciding which males should be allowed access to female spaces.
 
If they pass, in the women's bathroom. If they don't, in the men's. That will be true for most sex segregation, but note that it's a lot harder to pass in contexts where you will be naked. For sports, no male should compete in the female category.
Who decides if they 'pass'?
That's not really an answer. And given the manifest failure we have already seen from "experts" in the field, I do not trust ANY of them to be deciding which males should be allowed access to female spaces.
It is an answer. Is your preference for there to be no assessment, no treatment and no regulation? That's certainly a low upfront cost approach.

And what about the other questions?

Where should transsexual women get changed in public?

Where should transsexual women go to get help if they have been raped?

And are you willing to have any of 'your tax dollars' fund these additional services?

If you don't like where transsexuals want to go the burden is on you to provide alternatives to deal with them. I have a feeling your opinion about this is probably something like 'love the foetus, screw the child' that is common amongst people that share your political points of view. I.e., you like telling people what to do, but don't want to expend any of your resources helping them deal with the consequences.
 
Who decides if they 'pass'?
The women in that space.
It is an answer. Is your preference for there to be no assessment, no treatment and no regulation? That's certainly a low upfront cost approach.
Medical treatment is regulated as medical treatment. That applies even if that treatment does not give you any privilege to transcend sex segregation. And anyone suffering from dysphoria should certainly get assessed. So nothing I've said suggests that there should be no assessment or treatment for trans people, or no regulation of that treatment.

But I don't see any workable regulation for granting access to males to enter female spaces.
And what about the other questions?

Where should transsexual women get changed in public?
I already told you. What part of "That will be true for most sex segregation" did you not understand? If they pass, they should change with the women. If they don't, they should change with the men. Why are you confused by that answer?
Where should transsexual women go to get help if they have been raped?
Where do men go to get help if they have been raped?
And are you willing to have any of 'your tax dollars' fund these additional services?
I'm not opposed to spending tax dollars to fund services to support any victim of rape.
If you don't like where transsexuals want to go the burden is on you to provide alternatives to deal with them.
There are already alternatives for them. That has never been the problem. Excluding trans identifying males from using the women's bathroom doesn't mean they can't use any bathroom.
 
You've just come out with a (useless) tautology. I.e. a male brain is a brain in a male body.

It seems some people just can't get past the idea that gender does not have to correspond to biological sex, just that it usually does in the vast majority of cases. For you there is are vertical lines at either end of the distribution curve; you can't deny the existence of very butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, but past those points no human is allowed to exist because doing so would conflict with your model of the universe. I suggest that nature doesn't give a ◊◊◊◊ about our models and will just do whatever it does.
I don't know how you're inferring what I think here, but you're way off. I don't deny the existence of butch lesbians or effeminate men (gay or straight) - I celebrate people who defy stereotypes. You seem stuck in some mindset that anyone who criticizes this movement must be right wing and therefore their viewpoint can be dismissed (both logical fallacies).

What do you mean "past those points"? Are you implying sex is a spectrum? It is demonstrably binary - there are two reproductive modes in all mammals, including humans (indeed it is effectively "locked in"). I agree nature doesn't care about our models - a love of that is what led me to choose my career ( I was a research biologist for ~30 years, now in clinical genetics).

Yes - there are a range of behaviors in both sexes, but that doesn't make anyone not female or male. Rather, it expands the range of the behaviors seen in males in females.
 

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