Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

I'll reiterate what I've been saying for the months of my on and off engagement in this discussion: there are several good reasons to advocate strict sex segregation in restrooms, enough so that my needle turns strongly to agreement that they should be sex segregated as the net benefit.

But then the crew here lobbies their reasoning, which ignores those very good reasons and pushes hard for the blatantly bigoted ones, giving this thread its long long long standing reputation.

 

[Ziggurat]

Walk a mile, man. You're a man, right? OK. Picture being told by some bigot "no, Hon, you're a woman. Now go to the little girls room like you should, with the other girls".

Feeling dignified? Respected?

How respected do women feel being told that they have to put up with men invading their spaces? Walk a mile indeed, hipocrite.

Oh, and if someone told me to use the little girls room, MY dignity wouldn't be the reason I would object. If it's why you would object, then there's something wrong with you.

And please don't say "well I am a man!" as a defense. Transwomen have a crossed wire somewhere in there, and think they are women.

So what? Why are other people obliged to play along with their delusions? Because if they actually think they are a woman (as opposed to wanting to be treated as if they were), that IS a delusion.

I accept that they believe they are women in the same way I accept that a gay man is sexually attracted to other men. I don't make up some bull ◊◊◊◊ AGP psychoanalitic diagnosis to make him out to be a perv getting his rocks off. I just accept it.

Your acceptance is irrelevant. You don't get to accept on behalf of women.

 

[Thermal]

How respected do women feel being told that they have to put up with men invading their spaces? Walk a mile indeed, hipocrite.

Hypocrite? How do you figure? I've posted repeatedly that I've asked pretty much all the women in my life about this. They all pretty much say "meh". None object, that I recall. And keep in mind (since your memory keeps failing), I live in a gender open state. The women I ask actually *live* in this dystopian nightmare you keep pushing horror stories about. They actually *have* the occasional transwoman come into their sacred spaces.

Oh, and if someone told me to use the little girls room, MY dignity wouldn't be the reason I would object.

Agreed, I would have the same primary concern.

If it's why you would object, then there's something wrong with you.

I didn't ask you on what grounds you would object. I asked you if you would feel dignified in the denial of your selfhood and how you were addressed and classified, and your identification respected. And you changed the subject rather than answer.

So what? Why are other people obliged to play along with their delusions? Because if they actually think they are a woman (as opposed to wanting to be treated as if they were), that IS a delusion.

Do you know what a delusion is? I'll give you a hint: it aint something the vast majority of transwomen are under. They know full and well they are biological males.

Your acceptance is irrelevant. You don't get to accept on behalf of women.

Agreed. I am discussing the subject with purpoted skeptics, of which there are three women participating (I don't think Elaedith or Aber have come out and said what they are) and easily double that in men.Three women, from *this* thread of all places, claiming to represent the worldview, ain't doing much for me, persuasiveness-wise.

 

[Ziggurat]

Hypocrite? How do you figure? I've posted repeatedly that I've asked pretty much all the women in my life about this.

And you ignore all the women in this thread. You aren't walking a mile in their shoes.

I didn't ask you on what grounds you would object. I asked you if you would feel dignified in the denial of your selfhood and how you were addressed and classified, and your identification respected. And you changed the subject rather than answer.

Try asking a better question. The one you asked is impossible for me to answer the way you want because there is in fact something much more important than my dignity at stake. I can't get around that in the scenario you posted. That in itself seems to suggest something about your position.

Do you know what a delusion is? I'll give you a hint: it aint something the vast majority of transwomen are under. They know full and well they are biological males.

Then they don't actually think they are women. They just want to be treated as if they are. That's not a delusion, it's just a preference.

Agreed. I am discussing the subject with purpoted skeptics, of which there are three women participating (I don't think Elaedith or Aber have come out and said what they are) and easily double that in men.Three women, from *this* thread of all places, claiming to represent the worldview, ain't doing much for me, persuasiveness-wise.

They don't have to represent all women. It's enough that they represent themselves. Yet you still dismiss them. Because your "walk a mile" appeal is a lie.

 

[p0lka]

I'll reiterate what I've been saying for the months of my on and off engagement in this discussion: there are several good reasons to advocate strict sex segregation in restrooms, enough so that my needle turns strongly to agreement that they should be sex segregated as the net benefit.

But then the crew here lobbies their reasoning, which ignores those very good reasons and pushes hard for the blatantly bigoted ones, giving this thread its long long long standing reputation.

Yeah, there's also too much "because I said so" and predicting the future instead of addressing anything.

 

[Rolfe]

Funny how many of these "I know in my inmost soul that I'm a woman" types are attracted to women. In other news, most men are heterosexual.

 

[Thermal]

And you ignore all the women in this thread. You aren't walking a mile in their shoes.

I've listened to all three. God knows I've listened to Rolfe, LOL. She's made her position excruciatingly clear. And I've listened to Pixel42 and Emily's Cat, and discussed a lot of points with EC in particular. They raise, as I've said, very valid points (your memory seems to be failing yet again). Yet I have more women in my immediate household that actually live in the gender bender nightmare, as well as the extended circle going exponentially more in number. I'm listening to all. Listening does not make a given argument more sound or persuasive.

Try asking a better question.

The question was fine, as an answer to yours. Which I answered directly first. Give it a shot sometime.

The one you asked is impossible for me to answer the way you want because there is in fact something much more important than my dignity at stake.

Again, I'm not asking you to rate your concerns. I asked you to try and understand how someone else might view things, in answer to your faux lack of comprehension on what that dignity jazz was all about.

I can't get around that in the scenario you posted. That in itself seems to suggest something about your position.

It suggests far more about yours. The suggestion "blinded by one's own rhetoric" springs to mind.

Then they don't actually think they are women. They just want to be treated as if they are. That's not a delusion, it's just a preference.

Then why baldly claim that it is a delusion? Did you forget that's what you asserted?

They don't have to represent all women. It's enough that they represent themselves. Yet you still dismiss them. Because your "walk a mile" appeal is a lie.

You're lying. I have listened. I listen to EC and Ms Pixel state their fears of predatory males posing as transwomen quite clearly. The available data (and simple reasoning and observation) suggests that such attacks do not increase under open gender policies.

 

[Thermal]

Funny how many of these "I know in my inmost soul that I'm a woman" types are attracted to women. In other news, most men are heterosexual.

Right. And being bio males, they share that same overwhelmingly heterosexual inclination. What's the problem? Do you think being trans is a sexual.orientation? Why? They don't think so.

 

[Ziggurat]

I've listened to all three. God knows I've listened to Rolfe, LOL. She's made her position excruciatingly clear. And I've listened to Pixel42 and Emily's Cat, and discussed a lot of points with EC in particular. They raise, as I've said, very valid points (your memory seems to be failing yet again). Yet I have more women in my immediate household that actually live in the gender bender nightmare, as well as the extended circle going exponentially more in number. I'm listening to all. Listening does not make a given argument more sound or persuasive.

Then why do you think it makes your argument more persuasive to tell me to walk in a trans person's shoes?

The question was fine, as an answer to yours. Which I answered directly first. Give it a shot sometime.

I did answer. My "dignity" is less important than other factors such as concern for other people I would be imposing on.

Again, I'm not asking you to rate your concerns. I asked you to try and understand how someone else might view things,

Someone else might consider their dignity more important than any consideration for others, sure. Absolutely.

You have unknowingly explained exactly the TRA position.

in answer to your faux lack of comprehension on what that dignity jazz was all about.

Oh, I understand it just fine. It's just a bull ◊◊◊◊ response, and really only kicks the can down the road. Why would peeing next to a man bother a trans identifying man? Why is it an afront to their dignity?

Then why baldly claim that it is a delusion? Did you forget that's what you asserted?

You are conflating two different things. Thinking you are a woman when you are not is a delusion. Wanting to be treated as if you were a woman is a preference. These are not the same thing. I thought that was obvious, but the fact that you confused them is rather telling.

You're lying. I have listened. I listen to EC and Ms Pixel state their fears of predatory males posing as transwomen quite clearly. The available data (and simple reasoning and observation) suggests that such attacks do not increase under open gender policies.

It's not just about attacks. The fact that you insist it is even after being told it's not proves that you are not in fact listening.

 

[Thermal]

Then why do you think it makes your argument more persuasive to tell me to walk in a trans person's shoes?

I did answer. My "dignity" is less important than other factors such as concern for other people I would be imposing on.

Someone else might consider their dignity more important than any consideration for others, sure. Absolutely.

You have unknowingly explained exactly the TRA position.

Oh, I understand it just fine. It's just a bull ◊◊◊◊ response, and really only kicks the can down the road. Why would peeing next to a man bother a trans identifying man? Why is it an afront to their dignity?

We literally just went over that. If you don't get why it is denying them a simple dignity, I can't help you.

And keep.in mind, I'm not saying they summarily should have it. I'm saying I get it, and it should be considered, as we are considering all input.

You are conflating two different things. Thinking you are a woman when you are not is a delusion.

Not the case for most, so... okay.

Wanting to be treated as if you were a woman is a preference. These are not the same thing. I thought that was obvious, but the fact that you confused them is rather telling.

I like this thing where "you are confused" is your catch all response. Beating it to death, though, man.

It's not just about attacks. The fact that you insist it is even after being told it's not proves that you are not in fact listening.

I insist nothing. Read EC and Pixel's posts. The theme looms rather large. Want me to put up a few dozen quotes from them to jog that ailing memory of yours? Search is back.

 

[Rolfe]

Right. And being bio males, they share that same overwhelmingly heterosexual inclination. What's the problem? Do you think being trans is a sexual.orientation? Why? They don't think so.

I think they're not women in their inmost souls. (I think they're a bunch of autogynaephiles.)

 

[Thermal]

I think they're not women in their inmost souls. (I think they're a bunch of autogynaephiles.)

You have indeed made your utterly unsubstantiated diagnosis abundantly clear.

 

[Rolfe]

That's good.

 

[p0lka]

I think they're not women in their inmost souls. (I think they're a bunch of autogynaephiles.)

Would that be all of them?

offtopic: there's no evidence of souls. let's not go there.

 

[smartcooky]

Yeah lots of people in this thread keep saying I don't get it, it's happened a few times.

Now, I wonder why that is

They tend to then follow with predictions of the future, rather than any data to show that I don't get it?

Sometimes, its so blindingly obvious that doing a thing is not going to work, that it needs no data to support it... changing labels from men/woman to male/female on public toilets is one of those things.

You are doing worse than that, you are saying every male in the trans community is a particular thing

Not every one of them, just the majority

namely misogynistic and wanting to get back at women by waving their ladydicks in their faces?

Yup. That has been my observation.

I know a few, one is my kid,

Good for you.

do you know any?

I know who the two are who accosted and threatened my daughters in public toilets and a public swimming pool changing room. Both selfID TIMs. If they try that again, they're going to get a face full of pepper spray. However, that is not likely to happen now, as both daughters have self-selected out of using those facilities now. That is how the intimidatory tactics of TRAs work - using violence and threats to get their way. With their protest behaviour, their online harassment and bullying campaigns, their letter writing campaigns to the employers of gender critical people, their threats of violence and death to towards gender-critical woman and their families. Believe them when they show everyone EXACTLY who they are!

Heres where I draw the line. If you support TRAs in ANY way, their beliefs OR their aims OR their motives OR their tactics, then you are indistiguishable from them. If a TIM attends a TRA protest, they are a TRA. Lesbians, Gays and BiSexual people the world over are currently distancing themselves as much as they can from the LGBT community because they want none of this. TIMs would be well advised to do the same. They need to distance themselves from TRAs by NOT joining into these protests.

 

[Ziggurat]

We literally just went over that. If you don't get why it is denying them a simple dignity, I can't help you.

Indeed, you cannot. Because you cannot provide any reason beyond they don't like it.

Which isn't a good enough reason.

Not the case for most, so... okay.

You're the one who said they thought they were women, not me.

I insist nothing. Read EC and Pixel's posts. The theme looms rather large.

You are insisting in this very post. The fact that it's a major reason doesn't mean it's the only reason. You keep ignoring all the times you've been told other reasons.

 

[Ziggurat]

I know a few, one is my kid, do you know any?

Ah. I see. So much now makes sense that didn't before.

 

[smartcooky]

We literally just went over that. If you don't get why it is denying them a simple dignity, I can't help you.

That is such a cowardly and pathetic dodge.

But I get it. You are happy to deny all women the dignity of NOT having a male in their private spaces just so long as it satisfies the urges of a small number of mentally ill men.

 

[Thermal]

"Autogynephiliacs"

"Delusional"

"Mentally ill"

"Dysphorics"

Y'all half wit psychoanalysts would laugh your fool heads off if some other unqualified nit wit strolled onto the forum and started making unconventional medical diagnoses with no qualifications whatsoever.

 

[Pixel42]

If you grant males access to female only spaces and services - because they feel female in their heads and insist that gives them the right to be treated as if they really are female - you immediately turn them into mixed sex spaces and services. Which means that actual females no longer have access to female only spaces and services.

It's a simple choice: either deny all males access to female only spaces and services, or deny all females access to (i.e. abolish) female only spaces and services.