Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

Federal employees who pass! Oh my aching sides. (If everyone knows the person's true sex, "passing" doesn't even come into it, and nobody should be in the least surprised that a person they know is male - for example - is using the male toilets.)

 

[theprestige]

You affirmatively claimed that federal agencies will only act when someone has been reported to them, no evidence has yet been provided for this view.

Treat it like the null hypothesis to your claim.

You misunderstood the dystopia remark, it was about how to solve the problem of people who pass as the opposite sex using the facilities wherein they do not pass.

I understood it just fine. You're concerned about dystopias emerging from this order. I'm saying the dystopia is coming from inside your house.

No, they are simply requiring people to follow current policy if they want to keep their jobs. Federal employees who pass as the opposite sex are now expected to sort themselves into bathrooms where they do not pass, and they know this is expected of them.

I'm having trouble making sense of this. Have you direct experience with a federal employee who is facing this dilemma?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Relevant to what?

Is it relevant to the question of whether men should be entitled to compete in women's sports if they say they want to?

is it relevant to the question of whether to prescribe irreversible trans-affirming medicine to minors?

The debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right restroom for androgynes.

It is relevant to the idea of allowing an individual or group prejudice decide who can be kicked out of a facility. There are women who have masculine features and lesbians who emphasize them. Are transphobic women, constantly on the lookout for transsexuals, allowed to ask masculine-looking women and butch lesbians to leave if they consider them to fall into the uncanny valley and they feel uncomfortable?

 

[Rolfe]

This seems relevant:

Woman with apparent mental impairment is treated with unnecessary embarrassment by shop assistant. What is that relevant to? Especially in the days of help-yourself self-service shops.

 

[Elaedith]

It is relevant to the idea of allowing an individual or group prejudice decide who can be kicked out of a facility. There are women who have masculine features and lesbians who emphasize them. Are transphobic women, constantly on the lookout for transsexuals, allowed to ask masculine-looking women and butch lesbians to leave if they consider them to fall into the uncanny valley and they feel uncomfortable?

You are saying if a man walks in to changing room while women are undressing, they need to carry on undressing and act like nothing is happening. Asking him to leave or making a fuss is like racism. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Woman with apparent mental impairment is treated with unnecessary embarrassment by shop assistant. What is that relevant to? Especially in the days of help-yourself self-service shops.

Are you sure Pat's a woman?

Toilets are self-service too.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You are saying if a man walks in to changing room while women are undressing, they need to carry on undressing and act like nothing is happening. Asking him to leave or making a fuss is like racism. Thanks for your contribution.

Yes I am saying that, because nothing is happening. What do you think is happening?

 

[Elaedith]

Yes I am saying that, because nothing is happening. What do you think is happening?

Voyeurism and possibly indecent exposure, two of the most common types of sexual offence in the UK, and ones which often escalate to more serious offences without intervention.

 

[Rolfe]

It is relevant to the idea of allowing an individual or group prejudice decide who can be kicked out of a facility. There are women who have masculine features and lesbians who emphasize them. Are transphobic women, constantly on the lookout for transsexuals, allowed to ask masculine-looking women and butch lesbians to leave if they consider them to fall into the uncanny valley and they feel uncomfortable?

All human beings are extremely good at determining the sex of other human beings. Women are better at it than men, though, and it seems as if they're a lot better at it than you are.

"Some men refuse to obey the posted signage, therefore a woman might become hypervigilant and challenge another woman by mistake. Therefore we should simply dispense with the signage and let anyone go everywhere" is not the argument you seem to think it is. These things occassionally happen, but then the woman who has been mistakenly challenged interacts with the challenger, they both laugh, and slightly embarrassed apologies are exchanged. It's not your concern, Ivor.

As I mentioned before, my friend Bridget recently mentioned that she gets challenged once or twice a month. I found that astonishing, I have to say, but perhaps it's true that the incursions by trans-identifying men have made some women hypervigilant. Bridget says she gives the other woman "my best smile, like a shark" - she demonstrated - and the laughter and apologies follow.

Ivor, we don't need your input into this. What we need is for men to obey the posted signage so that women don't feel so much under pressure that they become hyper-vigilant.

 

[theprestige]

It is relevant to the idea of allowing an individual or group prejudice decide who can be kicked out of a facility. There are women who have masculine features and lesbians who emphasize them. Are transphobic women, constantly on the lookout for transsexuals, allowed to ask masculine-looking women and butch lesbians to leave if they consider them to fall into the uncanny valley and they feel uncomfortable?

Like I said, the debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right restroom for androgynes.

The reality is that butch women in women's restrooms hasn't been a problem in the past, and isn't going to be a problem in the future.

The problem is policies that entitle men to override sex segregation whenever they want. Get rid of those policies, and the problem goes away.

 

[theprestige]

Are you sure Pat's a woman?

Pat is Julia Sweeney in a fat suit.

 

[Rolfe]

I've never seen it before but "Pat" is pretty obviously a woman, a woman who either has learning disabilities or is acting the part of someone with learning disabilities.

 

[Rolfe]

Like I said, the debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right restroom for androgynes.

The reality is that butch women in women's restrooms hasn't been a problem in the past, and isn't going to be a problem in the future.

The problem is policies that entitle men to override sex segregation whenever they want. Get rid of those policies, and the problem goes away.

It's not a problem because butch women - or indeed women who aren't butch but just get mistaken for men, like Bridget - are women. If a mistake is made it's soon recognised and corrected and people laugh a bit to hide their embarrassment. Nobody dies. We don't need men's input to handle this.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

All human beings are extremely good at determining the sex of other human beings. Women are better at it than men, though, and it seems as if they're a lot better at it than you are.

"Some men refuse to obey the posted signage, therefore a woman might become hypervigilant and challenge another woman by mistake. Therefore we should simply dispense with the signage and let anyone go everywhere" is not the argument you seem to think it is. These things occassionally happen, but then the woman who has been mistakenly challenged interacts with the challenger, they both laugh, and slightly embarrassed apologies are exchanged.
It's not your concern, Ivor.
As I mentioned before, my friend Bridget recently mentioned that she gets challenged once or twice a month. I found that astonishing, I have to say, but perhaps it's true that the incursions by trans-identifying men have made some women hypervigilant. Bridget says she gives the other woman "my best smile, like a shark" - she demonstrated - and the laughter and apologies follow.

Ivor, we don't need your input into this. What we need is for men to obey the posted signage so that women don't feel so much under pressure that they become hyper-vigilant.

FYI: This thread is not your or anyone else's "safe space", though it is often very much an echo chamber. I will come and go as I please.

Soon enough the generation so enraged by this topic will be dead or in care homes where people will nod and smile and help them drink from beakers of squash to take their dementia pills with.

The younger generation appear to be more accepting of trans people and will hopefully be both more compassionate and pragmatic and less hysterical.

 

[Rolfe]

Soon this lunacy will go the way of tulip fever, the glass delusion and the Salem witch trials. We're already seeing the even younger generation rejecting and mocking the gendery nonsense of the older teenagers.

The policing of women's single-sex spaces is still not your concern. We manage fine without you arriving as a man to tell us what we ought to be doing, thanks but no thanks.

 

[theprestige]

I've never seen it before but "Pat" is pretty obviously a woman, a woman who either has learning disabilities or is acting the part of someone with learning disabilities.

Pat is a character in a comedy sketch. The joke is that they're intractably androgynous. This plays out in comically awkward scenes. Someone tries to politely or unobtrusively figure out wether they're a man or a woman. Pat consistently acts or answers in a way that foils the attempt. Laughter ensues.

The character doesn't have a learning disability, they're just comically clueless about the dilemma their character presents. That's the joke.

It should also be noted that the Saturday Night Live "Pat" sketches are from the 90s. Trans rights activism was still in its infancy, and it was not taboo to joke about gender ambiguity.

Also, Julia Sweeney does a pretty good job of delivering that ambiguity in her performance.

 

[Manger Douse]

Exactly what I said. The adults in schools i.e. teaching, admin and maintenance staff don't use the same toilets as students, not even in schools that have 16 year old plus students, no student would be taking any non student into any toilet. The comment was about the claim being made in the tweet.

So again, why did the inventor of this scheme say:

"signalling to trans+ individuals that they are safe to approach, especially when using
public toilets or navigating other gendered spaces."

and

“I want this to be everywhere At schools, in NHS settings, at festivals, in shops"

if this is regarding school toilets ?

 

[theprestige]

FYI: This thread is not your or anyone else's "safe space", though it is often very much an echo chamber. I will come and go as I please.

Soon enough the generation so enraged by this topic will be dead or in care homes where people will nod and smile and help them drink from beakers of squash to take their dementia pills with.

The younger generation appear to be more accepting of trans people and will hopefully be both more compassionate and pragmatic and less hysterical.

Does that include the younger generation of women who don't want to be forced off the podium and into the ER by male athletes competing in women's sports? You think Caitlin Clark is going to be accepting if the opposing team fields a man to cover her?

 

[Rolfe]

Pat is a character in a comedy sketch. The joke is that they're intractably androgynous. This plays out in comically awkward scenes. Someone tries to politely or unobtrusively figure out wether they're a man or a woman. Pat consistently acts or answers in a way that foils the attempt. Laughter ensues.

The character doesn't have a learning disability, they're just comically clueless about the dilemma their character presents. That's the joke.

It should also be noted that the Saturday Night Live "Pat" sketches are from the 90s. Trans rights activism was still in its infancy, and it was not taboo to joke about gender ambiguity.

Also, Julia Sweeney does a pretty good job of delivering that ambiguity in her performance.

I've never seen any of that before. I don't know about ambiguity but surely the actual sex of the actress is blindingly obvious the entire time? It was to me.

I've mentioned this before about actresses playing male characters on stage, particularly in relation to the Met Parsifal where the male chorus and male principles are joined by two sopranos singing the parts of two of the pages. Modern dress, everyone in almost identical white shirts and dark grey trousers and bare feet. Imagine a wide view of the stage, lighting quite dim, no one character is standing out or the centre of focus. These two women, mingling with the rest, are almost immediately clockable as women despite the best efforts of wardrobe, makeup and hair - including, I think, chest binders.

Another thing that springs to mind, although slightly different, is Janet Baker's Orfeo. A masterly performance and again wardrobe, hair and makeup did their level best, but of course the audience knew all the time exactly which diva was starring. I thought it was a wonderful performance, very moving etc etc. Then I saw Jochen Kowalski, a counter-tenor, in the same role. It was electrifying. The casting of an actual for realsies male human being as the bereft young husband setting out to recover his lost wife was on another level entirely. The sexes are not interchangeable, and people know, and respond accordingly.

I mean come on. There are certainly a few individuals who aren't immediately clockable one way or the other, usually teenagers, but a few moments in their company, especially hearing them speak, and no doubt remains. Anyone who remained unaware that that Pat character was actually female for more than about three seconds - well I wonder about their eyesight and hearing.

That was what was so deceptive about the casting of a female actress as the trans-identifying male character in Coronation Street. She was read as female the entire time, subliminally grinding the idea that TWAW into all the viewers.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Does that include the younger generation of women who don't want to be forced off the podium and into the ER by male athletes competing in women's sports? You think Caitlin Clark is going to be accepting if the opposing team fields a man to cover her?

I've made my position on this clear. Transsexuals do not get to choose their biological sex. Where biological differences are relevant, such as in some sports, they form a valid reason for grouping people into different categories to provide fairer competition.

Using a public toilet is an activity where biological differences are easily accommodated. This is not my opinion, it is a fact proven by the reality that many places such as small shops and cafes don't have the space for sex segregated toilet facilities and yet everyone manages to get along just fine.