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Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

All kidding aside, I notice not one of you had anything substantive to say about Allen's article, even though he is a skeptic. You don't want "actual debate."
I'm not sure what planet you're currently living on, but most of us have responded substantively to the posts you have provided recently—including the ones that simply repeat prior claims, e.g., the excimer laser article—with zero subsequent answers from you. You have earned the reputation as a seagull poster. Hence people know not to waste their time trying to engage you, because you refuse to participate. And predictably, as soon as people properly ignore you, you wax rhetorical about how people supposedly don't want to debate you. You're being childish and non-serious, and people are treating you accordingly.

Your idea of "actual debate" is to summarily dismiss evidence you can't explain and to dismiss all pro-authenticity scientists as non-scientists because they believe in a supreme being...
Asked and answered, with zero subsequent discussion from you.

You are so poorly read and biased when it comes to the Shroud that you can't even admit that its image is a photographic negative.
No, the standard of scholarship is not agreement with some foisted opinion. No, you're not the smartest person in the room.

Anyway, for you and others who've been pushing the theory that the Shroud's image is a medieval fabrication, here's a detail refutation of that theory by Mark A. Rivera, a retired physicist...
Blah blah blah. As if a physics degree qualifies you in art history.

Address the rebuttals you've received to your posts of the past few weeks and then maybe someone will decide to take you seriously.
 
Bollocks! No, double bollocks! Better yet, infinity bollocks! There! I win!
Sigh. Do try and act like an adult.
All kidding aside, I notice not one of you had anything substantive to say about Allen's article,
As I stated previously we examined those assertions previously. I have no intention of repeating muself.
You don't want "actual debate." Your idea of "actual debate" is to summarily dismiss evidence you can't explain and to dismiss all pro-authenticity scientists as non-scientists because they believe in a supreme being--and then declare yourself the winner and pretend that your arguments aren't being answered.
Projection at work

You are so poorly read and biased when it comes to the Shroud that you can't even admit that its image is a photographic negative.
Because it isn't. It's terrible simple.
Anyway, for you and others who've been pushing the theory that the Shroud's image is a medieval fabrication, here's a detail refutation of that theory by Mark A. Rivera, a retired physicist <snippage of career and qualifications inflation>
Very nice. But it proves nothing today, as it didn't a few years ago when it was news and the shroudies embraced it as proving all their "photgraphic negative" and "3D image" nonsense was true.
Of course it proves little, especially when the aspect of the head and the details of the eyes, lips, nose and facial swellings are studied (they mitigate against a "photographic" image). In fact Rivera's study is rather in favour of an image created by applied pigment.
I note, with little surprise, that the suggestions that Rivera apply his 'technique' to colour pictures, which would have been pretty definitive on the pigment question, was never carried out.

 
Blah blah blah. As if a physics degree qualifies you in art history.
It doesn't even qualify for what he was trying to do.


As an aside the shroudies are absolutely obsessed with qualifications, part of their attempt to support their nonsense with real science.
The pepper their desperate nonsense with silly claims about "dozens of scientists" studying the cloth, assert that it is "the most studied artifact" and boast of "dozens of peer reviewed papers". None of which stand up to scrutiny.

According to the shroudies STURP had forty top scientists who spent 120 continuous studying the Shroud in '78 and taking thousands of photographs, which they worked on for years.
The reality is rather different.
  • There were 26 people involved.
  • None of those involved were particularly notable in their fields.
  • Numerous vital disciplines, archaeology, history, forensic medicine and art history for example, were unrepresented.
  • The examination was farcical, the cloth was unwrapped the wrong way around on the custom built table, rendering the scaling marks useless.
  • There were not "thousands" of photographs: a few hundred at most (including approximately eighty using ultra-violet less than forty with x-radiation, perhaps twenty using infra-red, 32 micrographs, several sets of colour and black and white photos, and a few more sets utilising coloured filters, plus Schwortz’s transmitted light pictures. The plan to take a thousand picture set of detailed images to create a mosaic never happened. Some 250 were supposedly taken but never published, or even referred to again. Likewise the series of detailed pictures of the central section of the image on the Lirey cloth (using eleven different filters) appear to have evaporated.
  • Most of the colour separated photos taken were worthless.
  • As for the "dozens of peer reviewed papers", well six were published in Applied Optics, six were delivered at the 1982 International Conference on Cybernetics and Society (and published in it's Proceedings), six were published in other scientific journals and two were magazine articles (unreviewed). Only nine people involved in the 1978 examination were listed as authors.
  • Even most of STURP were unconvinced that the cloth was real.
  • The tape-sampling procedure, poorly planned anyway, was even more badly carried out.
  • Most of those taking part were, at best, ambivalent about the authenticity of the cloth.
  • Around a dozen papers resulted, most on minor aspects
  • Most of those involved in the 1978 analysis had nothing further to do with the alleged shroud.
 
As an aside the shroudies are absolutely obsessed with qualifications, part of their attempt to support their nonsense with real science.
That does indeed seem to be the case—almost to fetish proportions. At least the latest offering is properly filed under Christian Studies.

We've already discussed overstated credentials. We've already discussed irrelevant credentials, an especially acute problem when the underlying claims are essentially religious. But what we've only touched on lately is the cargo-cult mentality that seems to accompany citations to scholarly works.

If you cite to a paper and ask me to read and comment on it, that quite strongly presumes that understanding it is something I am expected to be able to do. Normally if someone understands something sufficient to offer informed comment, that understanding also includes the ability to identify any flaws in it. But here it seems as if the citations are being offered merely as opaque weapons. We're supposed to understand and comment on it only as far as agreeing that it's some sort of scientific slam-dunk offered by people so eminent in their fields as to stand beyond all reproach. As soon as we look at the offering itself and point out its leaps of logic, its ignorance of the relevant fields of study, its hidden assumptions, its mathematical chicanery—then all of a sudden who are we to think we can question the findings of such eminent scholars? The limit of understanding we're allowed to employ falls conveniently right where we would ordinarily get a good view of the emperor's alleged clothes.
 
I don't think it's the case that anyone here has "dismiss[ed] all pro-authenticity scientists as non-scientists because they believe in a supreme being"- but if a "pro-authenticity scientist" bases his conclusions on "evidence" that requires a supreme being who can do anything at all, including a body producing laser beams 2000 years ago, then I would say that it's certainly a waste of time to try to debate someone who begins with, and will always have, a fallback position like that.
 
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I don't think it's the case that anyone here has "dismiss[ed] all pro-authenticity scientists as non-scientists because they believe in a supreme being"- but if a "pro-authenticity scientist" bases his conclusions on "evidence" that requires a supreme being who can do anything at all, including a body producing laser beams 2000 years ago, then I would say that it's certainly a waste of time to try to debate someone who begins with, and will always have, a fallback position like that.
Yep. The nonsense about magic god neutrons, earthquakes causing collimated radiation and lasing corpses does take the work of certain scientists firmly into science fantasy territory.
 
I don't think it's the case that anyone here has "dismiss[ed] all pro-authenticity scientists as non-scientists because they believe in a supreme being"
I can say it is absolutely untrue in my case. But some people do so very much like to believe they're being persecuted for their faith.

As I've said many times, about half the people I employ are practicing members of my state's dominant religion. Many of these hold advanced degrees in demanding scientific and technical fields, are members in good standing of academic, professional, and scientific organizations, or hold certificates that indicate significant scientific or technical achievement. A few even are graduates of Brigham Young University, a school wholly owned and operated by a church. Their skill as scientists and their value to our organization has nothing to with what they may profess personally elsewhere or why. To accuse me (or others here) of categorically dismissing scientists simply because they also believe in a supreme being is not only factually false, it's rhetorically repugnant.

I evaluate claims sounding in science strictly according to their scientific merits. Where the author's judgment comes into play, I do consider the potential for bias. But I don't simply assume that any judgment made by someone who believes in God is ipso facto biased and therefore categorically worthy of dismissal. As with any suspicion of bias, you actually have to show where and how the alleged bias occurs.

But if a "pro-authenticity scientist" bases his conclusions on "evidence" that requires a supreme being who can do anything at all, including a body producing laser beams 2000 years ago, then I would say that it's certainly a waste of time to try to debate someone who begins with, and will always have, a fallback position like that.

I don't think that paper strictly argues that lasers existed at the time of Jesus. The claim is that ultraviolet light of a particular wavelength and intensity has an effect on cloth that resembles the image on the shroud. The experiments found a laser to be the most convenient way to produce that kind of light today. But the suggestion is that ultraviolet light with similar parameters could have been some by-product of a resurrection process.

From the science standpoint, that's untestable. The notion of corporeal resurrection is purely a religious claim. While it would inevitably have to be a physical process if it turned out somehow, sometime to be real, no analogue to it exists in the known physical world. Even if we take Christian religious text as accurate history, the process of resurrection was never witnessed and never described. Therefore there is absolutely no basis by which to test a hypothesis that the image on the shroud was created by a resurrecting Jesus by means of high-intensity ultraviolet irradiation. Similarly there is no way to test claims of wonky subatomic particle behavior, or any of the other pseudo-physics claims made—not necessarily because they lack all scientific plausibility, but simply because any connection between those sciency-sounding proposals and the products or side-effects of a resurrection is (and must remain) 100% speculation.

The same goes for the even less scientifically grounded claims. It does no good to propose that Jesus no-clipped his way out from under the shroud (and, incidentally, also from Mary's womb, thus keeping her maidenhead intact). If the only way to connect some physical-science proposal to the image on the shroud under the hypothesis of authenticity is by guessing what a resurrection looks like, then it can never not be an appeal to magic. You will never not be speculating about the marginal pseudo-scientific properties of what—in 2,000 years—has never been anything more than a Christian truth claim. Those claims have no value in science, and those making them under color of science are not being any more scientific about it just because those people have a lot of PhDs in chemistry.

But we can find plenty to object to in the other direction. Even among those authors who either avoid religious truth claims altogether or admittedly condition their findings on accepting a religious truth claims (thereby giving the reader an out), there is still bad science. This has nothing to do with whether the author believes in God. But it has a lot to do with whether the author might believe in proper scientific method.

For example, some of the IEEE scholarship wants to talk about intensity falloff, which is generally an inverse-squared property. Up front they express the intensity function properly in impressive-looking math, which makes them seem like they're being really scientific about it. It's not until much later, buried in the guts of the paper, that they acknowledge—and then sidestep—the collimation problem. It's one thing to note that darkness in the image could be proportional to the intensity of some (unknown) kind of radiated property—either electromagnetic or chemical. But the collimation problem points out that the scalar mathematics they led with back when the reader was still sharp-minded don't really capture what's happening and that the real problem is a vector problem. And the behavior of intensity vectors is suddenly subject to defocusing. A single point on the cloth has a view factor to several points on the body. Those view factors all have a different vector magnitudes and therefore cannot be deterministically deconvolved. Therefore to claim the image on the cloth could have been an intensity effect is disingenuous when you have to handwave away the elementary physical problem with that theory. This has nothing to do with a belief in a supreme being or a religious truth claim. It's just bad science.

Similarly when the alleged 3D projection properties of the image are examined, they really aren't there. There's an intuitive, pareidolic view. But when the harsh reality of mathematics is brought to bear, the claimed properties disappear almost entirely. The effect holds up only for localized areas a few centimeters square at best. The authors' best response to that is to apply "corrections" interactively to the data until they get what they want. That is absolutely not a test of the hypothesis that the image contains 3D data. If you tell me that an image of Jesus spontaneously appeared in a bowl of spaghetti, but then reserve the right to play around with it with a fork until it looks like Jesus, then the claim hasn't been tested. But again, this has nothing to do with belief in God or a religious truth claim. It's just bad science. The fact that it's bad science in defense of a religious belief is irrelevant. It could be bad science in defense of a criminal conviction or bad science in at attempt to grift people for money. The problem is that it's just bad science.

But even when we manage to hammer home this point, the rejoinder is still unsatisfying: "You can't possibly know enough about these scientists' work to tell whether the science is good or bad."

Yes. Yes, I can.

Time and again we see the fetish of credentials deployed to defuse criticism on the merits. We're treated to offerings that seem to be trying very hard to look like science. And as I wrote above, the very fact that we're being asked to read them, understand the claims being made, and offer informed commentary on them presupposes that understanding them is something that is within our power to do. So claims such as, "You don't have the proper credentials to criticize these authors' work," are largely precluded by the conditions of the argument. Now it's true that not all (or even many) readers will be appropriately qualified in the relevant sciences. But from that it does not follow that no reader will have the proper understanding. Uninformed readers will respond properly by saying, "Hm, that science goes over my head, so I won't comment on it." But if someone takes up the challenge to read a source, comment in detail upon its merits, and identify its flaws, then that can't simply be swept under the carpet as religious persecution or ignorant handwaving that needs no further attention.

And it's always good to take a step back and look at the science in general. No matter how much this small cadre of authors wants to achieve credibility by self-publishing their hobbyist work or publishing on the margins, the informed scientific consensus writ large remains that the shroud is a medieval artifact. That's not a popularity contest. The consensus of properly informed people all evaluating a claim on its merits is valuable information.
 
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Try to imagine a reality in which all the world's scientists are not conspiring to hide the truth about the shroud of Turin.
No one has the ultimate "truth" with respect to the Shroud, that's what a 5-95% confidence interval means.

I don't think anyone is hiding any truth about the shroud.

And you haven't provided a sufficient response to the claim that the samples from the shroud were not homogeneous, or even agree that radiocarbon samples need to be as homogeneous as possible.

So what were the samples of in your data page?
 
No one has the ultimate "truth" with respect to the Shroud, that's what a 5-95% confidence interval means.
You don't know what that means. For starters, a big part of this discussion has been trying to divorce you from an erroneous premise of rigidity in those intervals. Moving on, there's no such thing as "5-95% confidence interval." There is such a thing as a ~±2σ confidence interval that contains 95% of the data. But the interval itself isn't expressed as a 5-95 interval. You still illustrate how little you know what you're talking about.

At the same time, there is no chance that the radiocarbon data is simply all-the-way wrong, or that it can allow for a 1st century CE date. The strongest consilience among all data is that the shroud is a medieval artifact. This is the consensus among radiocarbon dating experts. Frantic handwaving from the sidelines to the contrary lacks rigor, for the reasons I'm trying so very hard to explain to a reluctant student.

I don't think anyone is hiding any truth about the shroud.
Casabianca and others essentially accuse the authors of the Damon paper of deliberately hiding and/or misstating the radiocarbon data. A big part of their argument is the puffery about what they posture as a huge effort to drag the raw data away from its custodians and how they allegedly manipulated it to get the answer they wanted. You outright claimed that "Damon cheated." If you're willing to finally discard all their silly conspiracy theories, then fine. But you'll need to say so explicitly so we can finally put Casabianca et al.'s nonsense behind us.

And you haven't provided a sufficient response to the claim that the samples from the shroud were not homogeneous, or even agree that radiocarbon samples need to be as homogeneous as possible.
According to who?

A mere few weeks ago you were stumbling over the notion that statistics is applied probability. A mere few weeks ago you didn't know what a chi-squared test even was. A mere few weeks ago you didn't know where confidence intervals came from. A mere week ago you were trying to compare raw radiocarbon dates directly to calibrated dates. You still haven't shown that you understand the multimodal distribution that is critical to understanding how the calendar dates work. But now you can be so very sure I haven't addressed a hasty conclusion drawn by unqualified authors? And now you can contradict established experts in radiocarbon dating who tell you exactly how the practitioners in the field deal with outliers?

I have absolutely no interest in your ignorant opinion, straw men, or incessant question-begging. But if you will climb down from your high horse, I will be happy to continue helping you correct your ignorance. Otherwise you can declare victory all you want without fooling anyone.

So what were the samples of in your data page?
Various organic materials unearthed during excavation and site preparation on the mountains bordering the Great Salt Lake.
 
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No one has the ultimate "truth" with respect to the Shroud, that's what a 5-95% confidence interval means.

I don't think anyone is hiding any truth about the shroud.

And you haven't provided a sufficient response to the claim that the samples from the shroud were not homogeneous, or even agree that radiocarbon samples need to be as homogeneous as possible.

So what were the samples of in your data page?
This is repetitive nonsense.
I believe it's time for.....
Radiocarbon results 4 - now in colour! Resized 600x300.png
The dating stands.

The dating is supported by a wealth of other evidence that puts the Lirey cloth's creation in the same period; textile (still waiting for your first century cloth), historical (the relic craze and the known historical references), artistic (both style and decay), et cetera.
And then there is the vast amount of negative evidence; the shroud doesn't match Jewish cultural practices, isn't mentioned until the 1300s, the presence of common artists' pigments et cetera.

All the uncomprehending nonsense about statistics, and mutterings about secret testing, invisible patches, contamination, KGB plots and church fraud don't alter these facts.
 
You don't know what that means.
This. One of the reasons I'm not touching @bobdroege7's inane munderings on stats with the proverbial barge pole (and we have one) is that he is clearly grossly ignorance about basic statistics and resorts to incanting the same magic formulae over and over again.
It's like dealing with a FMOTLer.....

The other reason is that @JayUtah is doing it better than I probably could.

A mere few weeks ago you were stumbling over the notion that statistics is applied probability. A mere few weeks ago you didn't know what a chi-squared test even was. A mere few weeks ago you didn't know where confidence intervals came from. A mere week ago you were trying to compare raw radiocarbon dates directly to calibrated dates.
This.
 
Third, that the shroud is documented to have been witnessed in a certain year doesn't preclude that it didn't exist much earlier. More importantly, radiocarbon dating tells you when the flax was harvested, not when the thread was spun, not when the cloth was woven, not when the image was created, and not when it was finally written about by someone whose writings persisted. You're trying to narrow the goalposts in a particularly ridiculous way. It's not valid history, it's not valid science, and it's not valid statistics.
But the recorded historical date the shroud was first documented in France can not be earlier that the radiocarbon date, so radiocarbon dates after 1356 are right out.

The radiocarbon date being the date the flax was harvested is good, but I gave you a better definition of what the radiocarbon date means earlier in the thread. It is more important for cloth items that can and have been mended since their manufacture, a point you are being obliviously ignorant of.

And there is a description of the shroud from the 1st century, so it's more ancient than the radiocarbon dates attest to.

See the works of the Apostle Thomas, particularly the Hymn of the Pearl.
 
But the recorded historical date the shroud was first documented in France can not be earlier that the radiocarbon date, so radiocarbon dates after 1356 are right out.
That doesn't mean there's something wrong with a calibrated calendar date that might include such a period. As I said, it would be irresponsible and dishonest not to report that the radiocarbon date calibrates out to a distribution with multiple modes. The true value can gravitate to either of those modes, and the fact that other information may help you decide which mode is more likely doesn't mean the other mode constitutes an error in the science, or even anything that requires a second thought. You're trying so very hard to stir up a dilemma where there simply isn't one. You don't seem to understand how multimodal distributions work and you don't seem to have any interested in learning. In fact, you still don't seem to understand what confidence bands represent at a basic level. Statistics is not a black-and-white pastime. It's an entirely different way of thinking about quantitative information that you seem to have no desire to appreciate. Frantically pointing to one knee-jerk slam-dunk after another is not a substitute for understanding the material.

The radiocarbon date being the date the flax was harvested is good, but I gave you a better definition of what the radiocarbon date means earlier in the thread.
Better according to who?

It is more important for cloth items that can and have been mended since their manufacture, a point you are being obliviously ignorant of.
You're trying very hard to shoehorn the patch theory into what you are trying very hard to characterize as hopelessly botched radiocarbon dating. But you don't know enough about radiocarbon dating to understand what the expectation should be for outliers, where they are understood to come from, nor how they are properly detected and handled by the relevant experts. You have some unevidenced speculation to accommodate what you ignorantly interpret as incontrovertible evidence of contamination in the radiocarbon dating work. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the reasoning here is circular. Not falling for speculation wrapped in circularity doesn’t constitute ignoring some important fact.

And there is a description of the shroud from the 1st century, so it's more ancient than the radiocarbon dates attest to.
See the works of the Apostle Thomas, particularly the Hymn of the Pearl.
No. You don't get to say the radiocarbon date is "somehow" wrong on the order of twelve centuries just because you now want to go back to waving your hands wildly over poorly interpreted historical records.

Since you seem to have abandoned Casabianca and the chi-squared argument after failing to engage the rebuttal, then I trust we'll hear no more about those things from you.
 
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But the recorded historical date the shroud was first documented in France can not be earlier that the radiocarbon date, so radiocarbon dates after 1356 are right out.
Yes. So what?
The radiocarbon date being the date the flax was harvested is good, but I gave you a better definition of what the radiocarbon date means earlier in the thread. It is more important for cloth items that can and have been mended since their manufacture, a point you are being obliviously ignorant of.
We've covered the shroudie invisible patch nonsense in excruciating detail.
It remains nonsense.
And there is a description of the shroud from the 1st century, so it's more ancient than the radiocarbon dates attest to.
Right.....
See the works of the Apostle Thomas, particularly the Hymn of the Pearl.
We await your interpretation.
 
Yes. So what?
Indeed, this is being presented as if it's some kind of smoking gun. There's no smoke. There's not even a gun.

Students usually can't give you a full soup-to-nuts account of their line of reasoning that got them to an erroneous conclusion, complete with all their hidden assumptions. Occasionally you can deduce what the wrong assumption is, just because the wrong answer can only come from a small set of assumptions or premises. But other times you just have to admit you can't read minds and you can't accurately identify what wrong thing is stuck in a student's head. That's kind of where I find myself now. He's so far off in the weeds—and unwilling to call for help—that I think he might be hopelessly lost. But hope springs eternal.

A radiocarbon date is just the age inferred from the ratio of steadily decaying carbon isotopes. There is some inherent uncertainty in measuring that decay because it's based on a discrete number of decays in a short continuous amount of time. But that's not the calibration problem. The calibration problem is due to finding out back in the 1950s that the amount of 14C available for absorption varies across time and place and that this had a noticeable effect on dating accuracy.

The radiocarbon date isn't a number. It's a normally-distributed random variable with a given mean and a given standard error. And that is itself usually pooled data from several runs, each of which has an uncertainty arising from the inherent measurement error. The 14C concentration is a 5-dimensional object: it's a normally-distributed random variable parameterized by coordinates on earth and years of time, yielding a mean and standard error for 14C concentration at that time and place.

In 1986 there didn't exist One True Method of distributing a set of distributions across a distribution. It's not that statistics didn't have a way. It's that there were many (different) ways of conceptualizing the problem—some even dating back to Gauss himself—and the scientist has to figure out which method works best for how he knows the phenomenon he's measuring behaves. By 1988, radiocarbon dating had settled on either (or both) of two methods.

But the problem in converting radiocarbon dates to calendar dates is not just managing the statistical undercertainty to arrive at an appropriate distribution to which you can apply any of several normative confidence metrics. The problem is that the underlying physical processes are inherently and intractably ambiguous. When the fundamental physical property you're measuring is an isotope ratio, you have to understand that any given ratio in a specimen will be the product of elapsed time since death and also the 14C concentration profile during its life on Earth. One of those varies steadily and monotonically. The other doesn't. That lack of monotonicity is what bites us, because it means we're dealing with a non-invertible function.

Simply put, the same high ratio of 14C could be observed in a young specimen in which not much of the isotope has decayed and in an older specimen that was around when there was more 14C present to absorb. If all you have is the specimen, you don't know how much each possible factor contributed to what you measured. Now by 1993(?) when we did our analysis of a shoreline, there was an agreed-upon method for estimating probability weightings for all the different dates it could be. This was the result of further studying the dataset that the calibration curve was derived from.

Still, what comes out of the calibration process is ostensibly normally distributed. Everything that went into it is normally distributed and everything that comes out of it is normally distributed. But the vital thing to know about the calibration result is that it's almost certainly going to be a set of normally-distributed random variables—not just one random variable. We can't do anything to fix that. It's simply that the problem of assessing true age from radiocarbon age requires us to invert a non-invertible function—i.e., to do something that's mathematically impossible.

Now we deal with this all the time in mathematics. It's usually best understood if we set aside the notion of statistical distributions and just work with finite, scalar numbers—with a huge caveat that I'll point out later.

Let's say the length of a certain part (ignoring tolerance and error) is calculated by finding the roots (zeros) of this equation.

A = (x - 1)² - q

That is, find the value of x when A = 0 and q is some value we measure on the factory floor. Don't worry about why that's the right equation. Let's say we just know it because our hypothetical company mathematician has derived it for us. If you do the algebra for q = 2, you come up with √(2) + 1. But algebra reminds us that the proper answer is ±√(2) + 1, or a solution set approximately {-0.414, 2.414}. Now we know that a length is a physical quantity that can't be less than zero, so we know to ignore the impossible option and take the length to be 2.414.

That doesn't mean the other root is wrong. It's a correct solution to the equation. We didn't do the algebra wrong. We just know from other information which answer is the one that works in the physical-world problem we were modeling with the math. We need to avoid saying it is the "right" answer. The other answer is a right answer. It's just not the one that can solve our problem. Our problem faces an inherent ambiguity. We didn't make a mistake. Our use of the word "ambiguous" doesn't imply we can't know the answer to our problem.

In the ℝ-valued example, our solution set is a set of values that we must select from on an either-or basis. Both are valid answers to the problem, but there is no way to reckon the notion of "combining" them in any way other than to show them as a set. When we turn back to statistics, our values are not either-or numbers but random variables that collectively model the underlying phenomena along with its uncertainty. We can certainly say that if we get two calibrated dates—sometimes you get three—you can still express them as the set

{N(μ₁,σ₁²), N(μ₂,σ₂²)}

but it's absolutely, incontrovertibly wrong to treat the set as discrete, distinct distributions. Unlike our simplistic example, it is absolutely not an either-or determination. This is the caveat I alluded to earlier. Instead you have to blend the distributions. There are many ways to do that, and knowing the right way to do it depends on knowing what your variables represent. Here they represent a functional mapping from the same underlying domain.

Incidentally, you can also represent the set of distributions as

{A₁-B₁, A₂-B₂}; nσ

for some given n, where A and B are the upper and lower values of a given error band defined by n. You might recognize that as a confidence interval, which embodies the mean and the standard error. That's just a different way to notate a random variable that has a given parameterization. And that's how radiocarbon dating experts prefer to express it, with n = 1 or n = 2. Each element in the calibration set is thus termed a confidence band. It is expressly wrong to consider them to be discrete intervals into only one of which the true date must fall. Students are expected to be confused by a notation that seems to be expressing a set of tolerances rather than modes in a single distribution. But the remedy for that is to learn more, not to demand that the world shrink to fit what you already know.

When you blend the distributions—optionally applying the weights I talked about above—you get a single multimodal distribution. That's a distribution with more than one mode, or hump. Typically for radiocarbon dating you get two humps, but I have seen some with three. Now if your modes are widely separated, the trough in between them might drop very close to the x-axis. But it will never be zero. The distribution will never, ever, ever devolve into an either-or choice. But in most cases those modes will be close enough together than their tails blend into a nontrivial trough. Either way, what's important to remember is that it's one distribution, not several.

Because this is still a probability mass function, the true calendar date will gravitate toward one hump or another. The weighting method we got from Stuiver and his colleagues after the shroud analysis was done will help. But just because the true date might prefer one hump to the other doesn't mean the non-preferred hump is wrong or that it indicates some flaw in the underlying lab procedure. This is where I think our poor statistics student is getting confused.

Yes, in the case of the shroud we can rely on a documentary historical source that says it existed in 1356 CE. Under no circumstances does that mean that Damon et al.'s 1353-1384 CE confidence band (95%)—which includes ostensible "creation" dates some decades later—constitutes any kind of flaw, mistake, or coverup that we need to investigate.

It is not a smoking gun.

It is literally a non-issue, just like getting -0.414 for a length is a non-issue. It's simply how the math works, and the solution is to understand what to do with what the math gives you. The other mode identified by the 1262-1312 CE confidence band comfortably accommodates an earlier creation date that allows for the shroud to be witnessed in 1356 CE. And that's the proper interpretation of the 68% reported confidence band that skews older and produced only a single mode.

Now any time you're reasoning from a single standard error, you have to ask yourself where the other 32% of the data is. It could be in the later portion of the distribution, but based on what we can know from all sources—including the statistics themselves—it probably isn't. It is probably not gravitating toward the later mode. If the modern weighted reckoning could be time-warped back to 1988, the confidence bands in Damon et al. would be accompanied by a weighting factor that would have given more weight to the 1262-1312 CE confidence band. The existence of another confidence band—another mode—that contains values we can decide according to other evidence are probably not where the true date lies is not any sort of mistake or cause for concern. It's literally just how the math works, and you have to know how to apply it to your specific problem.

We've covered the shroudie invisible patch nonsense in excruciating detail.
It remains nonsense.
I agree. What seems to be confusing our student is the notion that the "errant" confidence band corresponds to a later date than he says we can know is possible. To the best of my mindreading ability, he seems to be thinking this is evidence of contamination from a modern patch. If that's the case, it's simply as wrong as it can be. The later confidence band simply comes from the vagaries of 14C concentration over time. By the time we're fiddling around with the multimodal distribution, the outliers that could conceivably be attributed to younger fabric will have already been handled statistically and either accommodated by a larger confidence interval (Leese, writing with Damon) or rejected from the data pool (Christen, Bronk Ramsey).

When he once said the two confidence bands can be explained only by there having been two sources of fabric in the sample, that was as ignorant as it could possibly be. As Pauli might have said, "That's not right, it isn't even wrong." I fear that our student's comprehension level hasn't improved much since those days.

Falling back to declarative statements like, "The data are heterogeneous, therefore the results are unreliable!" is simply to ignore everything we've gone over in the past few weeks. It's a fringe reset. In over his head, our student is simply fleeing back to Square One, knees jerking all the way, hoping the real world will just simplify itself and obey black-and-white rules that lay people can apply without any pesky acquisition of expertise. That's not how data behave.

Similarly, complaining that people aren't agreeing that scientific measurements of the same value should be as homogeneous as possible, is the strawiest of straw men. No one is claiming that. Every scientist strives to measure accurately and precisely. The question is what to do when the data are inevitably distributed. Casabianca et al. have one idea, but neither he nor his coauthors work in the field and therefore have little understanding of the value of their idea. The people who actually do radiocarbon dating know how much heterogeneity to expect, how to identify it, and what to do about it.

According to one method that was popular in 1988, the heterogeneity simply doesn't correlate to the shroud sample. It correlates to the Arizona lab, no matter what sample they were working on. According to another method (Christen), we only have to reject two outliers to bring the study into proper conformity. This is a correct, proper expression of how radiocarbon daters use statistics to inform them of the shape of their data. Casabianca's mechanical application of normative values simply doesn't cut it in the field.

Similarly Van Haelst tries to throw a whole lot of statistical mud at the wall to see if any sticks. I got as far as watching him try to apply a beta distribution statistic to data that aren't beta-distributed. That tells me all I need to know. People need to understand that just because an author can array all his errors in neat tables doesn't mean it suddenly becomes science.

We await your interpretation.
I simply don't know what to make of this. Historiographic interpretation is notoriously unreliable and difficult. It will always just come down to someone's opinion that some text or another might be talking about some artifact or another. The debate over the Pray Codex is never going to end because it's always just a debate over how creatively one is allowed to fill in the blanks, to say this is equivalent to that, and to quibble over poor artistic ability.

But science is science. That's hard data. That's an objective physical phenomenon that can be measured objectively, and an uncertainty can be reckoned for that measurement. It's one thing to quibble over whether that uncertainty has been properly expressed and whether it makes the dating unreliable. But it's another thing altogether to simply up and say that objectively-obtained data is simply wrong for no better reason than someone is filling in the historiographic blanks the way they want. That's like saying you can ignore your blood pressure at 175/110 because your wife says she thinks you're looking good these days.
 
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Now, with regard to @bobdroege7's latest googling, the "Hymn of the Pearl".

The C-level summary is: it's nonsense, ignore it.

For those more interested in why its nonsense, read on.
First the background. Modern xianity of whichever flavour has accepted certain writings from the dim and distant past (i.e. the scribblings of the camp-fire stories of a bunch of illiterate goat herders from the arse-end of nowhere) as being The One True Canon. Which set of writings depends on the franchise.

Most vaguely 'mainstream' sects of xianity accept that there are four gospels, chosen by a mixture of populaity and politics (i.e. the Roman and Nicaean Councils) to suit those who ran the church. Many alternate gospels, and biblical books, didn't make the cut and are relegated to fan-fic status.
  • Rather like Splinter of the Mind's Eye......
The Acts of Thomas is one such piece of biblical fan-fic, classed by most xian franchises as apocryphal, not even deutero-canonical (in fact the Catholic Churches generally rate it as heretical). It was written in the third century CE, probably (from textual elements) in Edessa (now in Turkey, though the city doesn't exist as such these days). Unfortunately the surviving text has suffered generations of editing and so what it actually said is mostly speculative. Naturally that hasn't stopped "biblical scholars"....

The Hymn of the Pearl is a passage within the Acts, supposedly a hymn sung by Thomas (the supposed apostle) while praying for himself and fellow prisoners. Notably the passage only exists in two copies of the manuscript. Stylistically it's a folk epic, somewhat reminiscent of heroic epics common in the culture.
The hymn tells the story of a boy "the son of the king of kings", who is sent to Egypt to retrieve a pearl from a serpent. During the quest, he is seduced by Egyptians and forgets his origin and his family. However, a letter is sent from the king of kings to remind him of his past. When the boy receives the letter, he remembers his mission, retrieves the pearl and returns. That the boy is implicitly Thomas rather than Jesus is indicated by the eventual assertion that he is next in line to his elder brother, this unnamed brother not otherwise mentioned in the text.
So what has this to do with a dodgy medieval theatrical prop from Lirey?
Well nothing really.
But the shroudies, pathetically desperate as ever to prop up their favourite rag, latched on a couple of lines (which appear, stylistically, to have been later additions, rather like the Testimonium Flavianum.

Suddenly, I saw my image on my [burial] garment like in a mirror

Two images: but one likeness of the King [of kings]

Naturally the shroudies point at these as being clear proof that the Lirey cloth existed in what is now Turkey in the period and therefore <insert the belief of the individual shroudie>.
This tends to fall down rather immediately as the belief in the shroud reference requires the reader to accept the lines are spoken by Jesus, rather than by Thomas as the rest of the hymn is clearly meant to be spoken by Thomas....

Shroudies tend to start ranting on about the Edessa cloth about now, frothing at the mouth is optional.
 
Now, with regard to @bobdroege7's latest googling, the "Hymn of the Pearl".

The Hymn of the Pearl is a passage within the Acts, supposedly a hymn sung by Thomas (the supposed apostle) while praying for himself and fellow prisoners. Notably the passage only exists in two copies of the manuscript. Stylistically it's a folk epic, somewhat reminiscent of heroic epics common in the culture.

So what has this to do with a dodgy medieval theatrical prop from Lirey?
Well nothing really.
But the shroudies, pathetically desperate as ever to prop up their favourite rag, latched on a couple of lines (which appear, stylistically, to have been later additions, rather like the Testimonium Flavianum.

Naturally the shroudies point at these as being clear proof that the Lirey cloth existed in what is now Turkey in the period and therefore <insert the belief of the individual shroudie>.
This tends to fall down rather immediately as the belief in the shroud reference requires the reader to accept the lines are spoken by Jesus, rather than by Thomas as the rest of the hymn is clearly meant to be spoken by Thomas....

Shroudies tend to start ranting on about the Edessa cloth about now, frothing at the mouth is optional.
It takes a rather creative reading to think the relevant passages in The Hymn of the Pearl are referring to a burial cloth, when they quite clearly describe kingly raiments that are "all-bespangled with sparkling splendor of colors", raiments moreover that the narrator puts *on* in order to ascend to his exalted station. The passages you quote are saying something like: "I saw these fancy clothes I was being presented, maybe saw my reflection in all the jewels on them, and remembered I was a prince". Nothing to do with the Shroud.
 
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It takes a rather creative reading to think the relevant passages in The Hymn of the Pearl are referring to a burial cloth, when they quite clearly describe kingly raiments that are "all-bespangled with sparkling splendor of colors", raiments moreover that the narrator puts *on* in order to ascend to his exalted station. The passages you quote are saying something like: "I saw these fancy clothes I was being presented, maybe saw my reflection in all the jewels on them, and remembered I was a prince". Nothing to do with the Shroud.
Well obviously it has nothing to so with the Lirey cloth, but shroudies are, as a group, desperate for anything that they can distorted to support their beliefs.
Now it's clear that the words cannot realistically be stretched to match the idea of a burial shroud (even by means of some truly dodgy translations) but, and to be more importantly (from my historiographical perspective) the lines are fairly clearly an insertion and didn't match the rest of the hymn.
 

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