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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Be careful with all that straw, while being inflammatory.
It ain't straw pal... it correctly and accurately summarises your exact schtick in this thread. You have been all over the place, taking grossly incoherent and contradictory positions for the entire time you have been posting here.
 
Why does it always have to be a game?
It doesn't have to be a game. I don't want it to be a game. I think the debate about trans rights in public policy should be taken seriously.

Fine. "No."
Cool. That seems to be where a lot of people start, on both sides of the debate.

So now let's narrow it down a bit: Under what circumstances - if any - do you believe men should be entitled to override sex segregation?
 
It doesn't have to be a game. I don't want it to be a game. I think the debate about trans rights in public policy should be taken seriously.


Cool. That seems to be where a lot of people start, on both sides of the debate.

So now let's narrow it down a bit: Under what circumstances - if any - do you believe men should be entitled to override sex segregation?
When necessary, or practical. Occasionally, out of courtesy.

Eta: you are aware that Socratically leading questions quickly get on a brothers last nerve, right?

Eta2: actually, I don't think there is an 'entitlement' at all. It's not an issue of being entitled to anything, in any direction.
 
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Either you have not looked very hard, or you have misunderstood what you read. Because what I described is exactly what it means in this context. It is the policy that the trans activists want. Do you dispute that this is what they want? Or do you just dispute that self ID is the term to describe what they want?
I have said multiple times that I don't give a fat rats ass what TRAs want.
 
That's irrelevant. In the real world, we still have to contend with them and their influence. And what they want is self ID as I described.
Great. You contend with them then, and adjust all your thinking to their terms. Or, since they are not actually here and participating in a skeptical discussion about the subject, you can contend with your imaginary representation of them. Not my bag.
 
Great. You contend with them then, and adjust all your thinking to their terms. Or, since they are not actually here and participating in a skeptical discussion about the subject, you can contend with your imaginary representation of them. Not my bag.
Your bag appears to be to play weird semantic games of your own devising. Meanwhile everyone else here knows exactly what I mean when I say "self ID".
 
Your bag appears to be to play weird semantic games of your own devising. Meanwhile everyone else here knows exactly what I mean when I say "self ID".
Funny how you so eagerly defer to TRA terminology, but only when quite convenient. Do you extend your passion for adopting TRA lingo when asked what a woman is?
 
Yes! This is the sort of thing I was thinking when I said that some gender stereotypes exist for good reason in my previous comment. Some of those gender roles and stereotypes are backed by biology. It doesn't mean they're written in stone and can never be changed, but there's more to 'em than just learned behavior.
Just realized I never replied to Emily's Cats post, I think my reply would be the same as to this one.
Yeah, If I said gender roles were solely from learned behavior I was incorrect and I take it back.

Evolution has made us male or female with all the different biological traits that we have and has necessarily caused the different sexes to take on different roles throughout time. At our present time though, society has kind of reinforced those sexual roles to the point that I think some people just said no and had to come up with a new word.

At the risk of going too far astray, I recently read a really interesting article about the genes that govern oxytocin receptors in the brains in both neurotypical and autistic males and females, using brain imaging to see if there was a neurological difference between males and females and if that might explain why autistic females often display different symptoms and are much less frequently diagnosed than autistic males. It's already know that there are sex specific differences in the oxytocin system in males and females, and not just in the "uterine contractions and breast let down" sense. Since oxytocin also has a role in things like socialization and bonding and risk and reward systems and learning, it goes a long way towards explaining some of those stereotypical gender roles.

And sure enough, autistic males and autistic females do seem to exhibit different neurology even when the same genetic defects are present. I need to read it again for better comprehension, but my initial oversimplified take away is that autistic girls are neurologically more similar to neurotypical boys in key areas than they are to autistic boys. Which makes a lot of sense from an anecdotal perspective, at least.

/end diversion, back to topic
Oh that is interesting, have you still got the link?

That's... an interesting statement in the context of this thread, gotta say.

It was in reply to this statement.

Clothing manufacturers should avoid using bigoted terms like "short" or "petite" in their sizing, because it doesn't align with my identity, and it's exclusionary toward transtall people
 
Long NY Times article on the rock and the hard place the Democrats find themselves caught between on trans issues:

Democratic politicians still diverge from the party on the issue at their peril. In May, The Dispatch asked Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona about his views on transgender athletes’ participation in sports. “As a parent of a daughter, I think it’s legitimate that parents are worried about the safety of their daughters, and I think it’s legitimate for us to be worried also about fair competition,” he said, adding, “I think the parents of these trans children also are worried, legitimately, about the health and wellness of their kids.”

The statement earned him rapid condemnation from a raft of L.G.B.T.Q. groups in Arizona that had previously endorsed him. Mr. Gallego has not spoken publicly about the subject since. Like most Democratic politicians contacted for this story, he declined to comment.

I thought this comment was interesting given the source:

“We haven’t been pragmatic for the last 10 or so years,” said Mara Keisling, the founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. “And that’s killing us.”
 
At our present time though, society has kind of reinforced those sexual roles to the point that I think some people just said no and had to come up with a new word.
What new word? If you mean woman, that's not a new word. That's an old word. Others have said no to reinforcing sexual roles and have decided that we don't need a new word at all. We can keep the original meanings of the words "female" and "woman." We also don't need a new word for acting feminine, or for stereotypically female gender roles.

Oh that is interesting, have you still got the link?
Hernandez, L.M., Lawrence, K.E., Padgaonkar, N.T. et al. Imaging-genetics of sex differences in ASD: distinct effects of OXTR variants on brain connectivity. Transl Psychiatry 10, 82 (2020). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41398-020-0750-9


It was in reply to this statement.
Yes, I know what it was in reply to. It's interesting because in this thread and in the real world, some people think that if a biological male states that he feels like a woman, it gives that person the right to override sex segregation and to even mandate what words people use. You telling Emily's Cat to grow up in response to her analogy is especially interesting since you're also here insisting that the word woman must be used a certain way and are telling everyone who doesn't use it that way that they're wrong.
 
What new word? If you mean woman, that's not a new word. That's an old word. Others have said no to reinforcing sexual roles and have decided that we don't need a new word at all. We can keep the original meanings of the words "female" and "woman." We also don't need a new word for acting feminine, or for stereotypically female gender roles.

The new word was 'gender'. As a concept it was a way to say no i'm not following society's sex roles.



Thanks for the link.



Yes, I know what it was in reply to. It's interesting because in this thread and in the real world, some people think that if a biological male states that he feels like a woman, it gives that person the right to override sex segregation and to even mandate what words people use. You telling Emily's Cat to grow up in response to her analogy is especially interesting since you're also here insisting that the word woman must be used a certain way and are telling everyone who doesn't use it that way that they're wrong.
No. My position is that gender labels have caused a lot of problems.
Society insists on labeling public and sports or anything with gender labels instead of sex labels, then moans about it when people argue about gender definitions.
Should have just sex labelled them in the first place.

I wish that gender labels would just not exist at all and everyone can be themselves without the social pressure that comes along with gender labels.

I'm literally replying to someone else in this thread that disagrees with me saying that 'woman' is a variable, so I'm not sure where I made you think that i was arguing that it was a constant?
 
The new word was 'gender'. As a concept it was a way to say no i'm not following society's sex roles.


I wish that gender labels would just not exist at all and everyone can be themselves without the social pressure that comes along with gender labels.

So do I. The word gender, before being repurposed (very recentlly) as a euphemism for "sex" refers to grammar. French and German words have a gender. So let's all stop pretending "gender" is a quality humans have.

Humans, like all mammals have a sex, either male or female.
 
The new word was 'gender'.
"Gender" is not a new word. Its been around at least since the 17th century. Gender has always been another way to say sex until quite recently when it was hijacked to mean something else. When separated from biological sex, gender become meaningless.
 
Gender took on a more refined meaning, related to (but distinct from) sex around the mid 20th century. It wasn't widespread popular outside of professional and academic circles till fairly recently. When my wife was in undergrad and grad school for psychology near the end of the last millennium, there was a commonplace, unambiguous distinction in the literature between the two. Related, but distinctly different. As I recall from her stuff, "gender expression" was the more common term, often shorthanded to gender. Should have stayed that way, too, as it was more clear that it is not a person's essential characteristic.

No one ever pinned down that distinction as it worked its way into law and civil rights protections, and it got subtlety used interchangably with sex again. Now we are kinda screwed, at least till the terms get clarified enough to make it crystal clear which is being referred to.
 
Funny how you so eagerly defer to TRA terminology,
There is no other terminology to refer to their preferred policy. I’m using the terminology everyone is familiar with and everyone but you understands, because that’s how communication works.
Do you extend your passion for adopting TRA lingo when asked what a woman is?
No, because there’s already a better alternative, the traditional definition. These aren’t equivalent situations.
 
There is no other terminology to refer to their preferred policy.
And you continue to ignore that i have no interest in discussing their preferred policy.

Why do we have to keep rinsing and repeating this? No one in the discussion supports the extremist TRA demands. As a bunch of self proclaimed skeptics, our discussion can delve into other areas beyond the extreme positions that we don't hold.
I’m using the terminology everyone is familiar with and everyone but you understands, because that’s how communication works.
I understand that you want to adopt their lingo when convenient for you, and deny it on the same grounds. I just don't find that constructive.
No, because there’s already a better alternative, the traditional definition. These aren’t equivalent situations.
"Better". It's like you're not hearing yourself. Whether or not it is "better" is the heart of the debate. You keep trying to worm that in as a given. It's not. Its exactly what the entire debate is about.
 

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