Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

Even in my very gender wide open US State, prisons routinely deny the sincerity of a fraudulent selfID.

How exactly does your wide open state determine who is truthful in their out-loud declaration of belief, and who is not? Is this method available to everyone and easily applicable across the board?

I acknowledge that transwomen are a unique category that falls outside of the everyday classifications (not strictly men, not strictly women).

In what way are transwomen NOT male human beings?

What do transgender identified males share in common with human females that (1) they do NOT share in common with human males and (2) can be objectively verified by an unbiased observer?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender roles seem to be a thing that people learn after birth I think. You grow up in a society that molds you to think a certain way of how to behave, some people say 'no, don't tell me how to behave' but lots of people just go along with how society says you should behave, hence the gender roles most of the time conforming to the sex

I don't entirely agree, p0lka. Yes, some of it is conditioned, but some of it is not.

LOTS of animals have sex-based divisions of labor within their social structures. Lionesses hunt; lions defend. Mares lead the herd and decide where they'll forage and rest; stallions protect the herd from other stallions. Female meerkats mind the kids, male meerkats do most of the scouting and hunting.

Some behavior is learned, but some is innate. Female humans are more risk averse than males. Again - that's not prescriptive. There's nothing that dictates that female humans are incapable of taking risks or doing dangerous things, and there's nothing that makes males incapable of being cautious. But in generally it holds true - you're not going to find a lot of female humans working electrical lines, or doing wind turbine maintenance. They're functionally able to do that work, just as capable as males... but vanishingly few females desire to do so, in part because those are high risk vocations. IIRC, there've been studies done measuring the tendency toward fight or flight in various situations, and they conclude that female humans have a higher likelihood of reacting to a dangerous or threatening situation by fleeing rather than fighting, and males are more likely to fight.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh, you're still mixing up gender and sex.

No, Tomboy is absolutely not mixing them up.

Pretty sure Tomboy has the same view as I do: Smash gender completely. For all intents, I'm a sex realist and a gender atheist.

 

[Emily's Cat]

He's using a definition of "man" as "adult human male".

Tomboy is a female member of ISF.

 

[p0lka]

Tomboy is a female member of ISF.

What is isf? I only just learnt about tra, dammit.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I didn't say there was any confusion, I said they were still mixing up gender and sex labels. They are using male (a sex label) and man( a gender label) to describe a thing? Why not just use one.

I reject your premise that "man" and "woman" are explicitly gender labels. The absolute most common usage of them is as a reference to sex. The first definition of "man" is adult male human; the first definition of "woman" is adult female human.

I refuse to give up the word that identifies my sex and my species in order to appease the fragile feelings of some males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What is isf? I only just learnt about tra, dammit.

ISF is us. We are ISF. International Skeptics Forum.

I'm genuinely surprised you haven't run across the acronym before now.

 

[Thermal]

That's not theprestige's framing. Their framing is essentially males who claim a transgender identity want the legal *right* to transgress sex segregated spaces any time they want; the functional outcome of giving this *right* on the basis of self-declaration is that all males would then be able to transgress those boundaries at their whim.

Not all males want that right; but if you give the right to some males then you have de facto granted it to all males.

Yes, you keep insisting this. It's not true. A transwoman may have rights I do not have, as a cis guy. You have not de facto granted anything to anyone else.

Classic slippery slope fallacy. And how do we know it's fallacious? We have states who have adopted the policy to look at. With one voice, it does not happen. Discussed at great length and considerable detail recently upthread anyway.

Why on earth do you think this? For it to only apply to some specific subset of males, there has to be an objective and easily verifiable way to sort males into the category of "real trans" and "other". How, pray tell, are we supposed to do that?

Again, rinse and repeat. Seriously, how many times do we have to sing the same song?

How would a random female human tell the difference between you in a skirt being not-trans and Eddie Izzard being real-trans?

Easy. I wouldn't be going in the women's room. Remarkable how simple this stuff is, innit?

I'm really tired, Thermal. Regardless of your intent, you're effectively playing a game here. Bathrooms haven't be *legally* separated on the basis of sex - but only because we didn't use to *need* a law about it. Everyone in the damned country knew - and still ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ knows! - that they are separated by biological sex as convention, and have always been intended to be such. Nobody, even the truest true believe thinks they were unisex and it was just a serving suggestion. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. So please, please stop playing this game of "Oh, it's not true that they've always been separated by sex!"

It hasn't been "wishy washy", it's been discretionary. Prior to about a decade ago or so, females had the discretion to tolerate males if we decided to... but we also had the authority and the accepted functional right to evict any male that we did NOT want to be there. And the entire rest of society would support our eviction.

I don't believe that you can't understand this shift, and why it matters.

It's always been "discretionary"? Another way to put that is that it's always been kind of wishy washy. You have never, ever been given some kind of discretionary authority. Neither have I, or anyone else. So "discretionary" doesn't mean anything. You couldn't order anyone out, with supporting authority. If someone of the opposite sex walked into a restroom... you just kind of dealt with it personally. No law was on your side. In fact, the law was often against you (those gender discrimination laws actually have decades long histories, in practice if not popularity).

You were never, ever in a position of authority, and were often in the legal wrong to exercise your claimed "discretion". It was never discretionary, because you never had a choice with teeth. Your "discretionary approval" meant nothing, unless someone else gave it to you. And if they did, they'd likely be violating the Civil Rights Act, too. As goofy as it sounds, you are advocating some kind of half assed "discretionary" vigalanitsm.

Eta: really butchered up the quote tags. Was in one of the last cel phone dead zones and phone response lagging so far behind, things got goofy

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you don't have an internal sense of being a woman, you can't identify yourself as one.

In your world, nobody ever lies? In your world, there is not one single pervy middle-school male who would be willing to put on a skirt and say out loud "I'm a transgirl" if doing so got them into the female locker room after gym, where they could see naked teen boobies?

Is there some magic spell in your world that prevents such a pervy middle schooler from saying they're something that they aren't? Or does everyone in your world have ESP? Or is it that your world contains not a single pervy middle school male?

 

[Ziggurat]

Tomboy is a female member of ISF.

Sorry, I got sloppy and though p0lka was referring to theprestige.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is this a claim worth discussing here, in your view?

(I'm going to go ahead and do so, but interested to hear your answer nevertheless.)

Assuming the IOC (and her family in various interviews) didn't lie about the circumstances of her birth, she was assigned female at birth.

Assuming the IOC issued correction was not misinformation, they admitted that Khelif "not a transgender case" while disclaiming the original unscripted claim that Khelif was "not a DSD case."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1819667573698445793

While you are correct that her medical records have not been made public (unless we count Le Correspondant as a credible source) the DSD hypothesis seems much stronger than the hypothesis that she undertook a course of gender affirmation contrary to her birth sex while growing up in a nation overwhelmingly dominated by Sunni Islam.

I don't think Khelif underook any medicalization whatsoever. I think the most likely scenario is that Khelif has 5-ARD, and at birth had genitals that didn't look "male enough" for a sexist and misogynistic country, and so was labeled as female. When puberty hit, Khelif then developed along much more typical male patterns... but because they were documented as female this misogynistic nation was perfectly happy to continue to repeat the falsehood and prop up a male to defeat females in competition.

For a nation dominated by Sunni Islam, none of the male coaches and entourage actually *treat* Khelif as if they're female.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sorry, I got sloppy and though p0lka was referring to theprestige.

Meh. I also suspect that Tomboy doesn't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about pronouns. If you call them "he" I sincerely doubt they're going to break down in tears and go slash their wrists.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you don't have an internal sense of being a woman, you can't identify yourself as one.

No, you absolutely can. You think you can't do so honestly, but so what? There is no test for honesty, by design. Self ID makes it impossible by definition to determine that anyone is lying about that. So you can identify as a woman to anyone who asks, and even if your internal sense doesn't match, that doesn't matter. Only what you say actually matters, because that's all self-ID permits access to. And anyone can say anything, even if they are lying. So self ID does in fact mean that anyone can identify as a woman. It means that you can identify as a woman. The fact that you don't want to, the fact that you might be lying if you did, doesn't mean that you can't. You can. You choose not to.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, you keep insisting this. It's not true. A transwoman may have rights I do not have, as a cis guy.

I've seen this joke before.

Me: Under self-ID, what would happen if, you know, you claimed you were trans?
You: No, I cannot do this.
Me: Yeah, I know, but what if, I know you're not supposed to, but what if, what if you did?
You: No, I cannot claim to be trans, I am not trans.
Me: Yeah man, but you know, late one night you just, hell, you enter a women's bathroom and say you're trans.
You: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ENTER A WOMEN'S BATHROOM IF YOU AREN'T TRANS!

 

[p0lka]

I reject your premise that "man" and "woman" are explicitly gender labels.

Your premise that my premise was about gender labels being explicit is incorrect...you added the word explicitly in your statement that I didn't mention at all.

The absolute most common usage of them is as a reference to sex. The first definition of "man" is adult male human; the first definition of "woman" is adult female human.

I refuse to give up the word that identifies my sex and my species in order to appease the fragile feelings of some males.

 

[Ziggurat]

Your premise that my premise was about gender labels being explicit is incorrect

"Man" isn't explicitly a gender label? Then in what sense is it a gender label? Only implicitly? What then does it explicitly label, if not gender? Sex?

 

[Joe Random]

In your world, nobody ever lies? In your world, there is not one single pervy middle-school male who would be willing to put on a skirt and say out loud "I'm a transgirl" if doing so got them into the female locker room after gym, where they could see naked teen boobies?

Is there some magic spell in your world that prevents such a pervy middle schooler from saying they're something that they aren't? Or does everyone in your world have ESP? Or is it that your world contains not a single pervy middle school male?

Years ago before I stopped participating in this thread I posted a few examples in the news of men hiding themselves away in the ... erm 'storage' part of women's portable toilets to peep (this not being a trans issue or behavior, by the way). If some pervert men are willing to endure that environment to see a few bare butts, how many more would be willing to simply incant the magic phrase "I identify as ..." to get full VIP access?

Again, the largest single problem in the entire issue being, IMO, fiat self-ID.

 

[p0lka]

ISF is us. We are ISF. International Skeptics Forum.

I'm genuinely surprised you haven't run across the acronym before now.

oh, i've still got jref in my head.

 

[p0lka]

"Man" isn't explicitly a gender label? Then in what sense is it a gender label? Only implicitly? What then does it explicitly label, if not gender? Sex?

Man is a gender label. Adding specific words to create a false dichotomy and then trying to argue about the words is a bit hmm.

 

[Thermal]

In your world, nobody ever lies?

Of course they do. Do you think that "rights" get granted to all because some people commit fraud?

Seriously. Do you think everyone has a right to rob houses? Some people do, you know. That doesnt mean that the right has been given for everyone to rob houses, yet thats exactly what you assert.

In your world, there is not one single pervy middle-school male who would be willing to put on a skirt and say out loud "I'm a transgirl" if doing so got them into the female locker room after gym, where they could see naked teen boobies?

You would think. I did. Then i found out that my state has been wide open to that for years. Not a single reportrd instance, in a state of many millions.

Is there some magic spell in your world that prevents such a pervy middle schooler from saying they're something that they aren't? Or does everyone in your world have ESP? Or is it that your world contains not a single pervy middle school male?

Nope. Just doesn't happen, in my state or the others with open gender policies. Your Slippery Slope is much less slippery and sloped than you assume. Turns out it's pretty flar with good traction.