Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

What do you mean by 'i saw what you did there'?

You can't be this naive!

This thread is weird, some posters are acting like it's a point scoring thing and it's a imaginary war with an other side. I'm just arguing my position.

Your position is wrong, and as long as you continue to argue it, I will continue to respond.

Your first 3 statements are incorrect...

Nope, they aren't.

...as reality says that gender labels can be distinct from sex labels

As @theprestige keeps correctly saying... "when gender labels are distinct from sex labels, they become functionally meaningless". This is especially the case in debates about public policy - and ultimately, that is what the debate in THIS THREAD is about.

1. Label sex segregated spaces (such as toilets, bathrooms, rape crisis centres and domestic violence shelters) with the gender label "Women Only" and trans-identified males will demand access to them.

2. Label those sex segregated spaces with the sex label "Females Only" and trans-identified males will still demand access to them.

3. Create a third space for transgender people, and label it "Transwomen Only" and trans-identified males will spurn them, and still demand access to the ones labelled "Women Only" or "Females Only"

We know all of the above is true because this has always been the stated position taken by TRAs....this is who and what they are, something they show us every . single . day!!

...just look around at society for the evidence.

I look around and I see no women who are anything other than female
I look around and I see no men who are anything other than male
I look around and I see no transwomen who are anything other than men (males) cosplaying as women (females) while under the self-delusion that they are female.

Your 4th statement makes no sense, go check with reality.

I have. My position on that stands as posted!

Your 5th statement I agree with, assuming the normal definitions of transwomen and transmen are held, no one can change their sex with present technology. EDIT: they can take on whatever gender role they want though, as long as it's not denying reality.

The taking on of so called "gender roles" is irrelevant to the debate over sex segregation in public policy.

EDIT2 I missed an opportunity to state premise incorrect, conclusion ignorable dammit, did it now though.

I can't even parse this.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes I agree with a lot of what you've said, but gender roles are still out there in peoples heads and exist unfortunately. All of us apes need to try and move on from our evolutionary tendencies and get with the modern world.

Some of them are never going to go away completely. Despite the activism of some (imo misguided) feminists, a fair bit of those tendencies evolved with us... and we can't really just wish our way out of evolution. Allowing exceptions without reprisal is a noble goal... but I give it pretty high likelihood that we will *always* have a higher proportion of females in caregiver and childcare roles than males, and we'll always have a higher proportion of males in dangerous physical roles. As long as we're not prohibiting males from being caregivers, or females from being electrical linemen, I see no reason to try to force equal representation.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This always seems to be aimed at females. We're the ones who have to put aside our own interests as being something that doesn't really matter. I have never heard anyone say to a trans-identifying man, it's just a fun run, why does it matter whether you're in the male division? Or indeed, why does it matter to you who is in the next cubicle to you in the toilets? It always matters desperately that the men get what they want, but when the women protest, they're told it shouldn't matter to them.

Spot on.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As for the 230 results Mara posted about, are you sure these are not pre-change-of-gender results?

Oh FFS.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah incredibly. I'm mostly joking about the cardigan knitting wars or the crochet fuel starvation that might possible ensue as that's gender based.
But a society that that has been evolutionary driven where the females are in charge? I would like to see that.

I dunno. Meerkats are female-dominant, and some bloodthirsty murdering bastards. Hyenas are also female-dominant, and their social structure is pretty much based on friendship and collaboration. I wouldn't make bets.

 

[angrysoba]

Yeah incredibly. I'm mostly joking about the cardigan knitting wars or the crochet fuel starvation that might possible ensue as that's gender based.
But a society that that has been evolutionary driven where the females are in charge? I would like to see that.

Ever heard of Margeret Thatcher?

 

[Emily's Cat]

While I'm against Transgender athletes competing against biological females, I don't give a damn about the other stuff.

What staggers me the most about this subject is how much many of you care. It affects almost none of you. Yet this thread dwarfs the participation of threads on subjects that have major impact on lives.

It affects every single female in the US, UK, CA, AU, and NZ. That's been where the majority focus of the discussion has been, with occasional forays into Spain, France, Sweden, Finland, and Mexico. Anywhere that policies are in place that allow males to override sex-based separations of intimate spaces, services, and sports, it affects all females.

But it doesn't affect you. You are sheltered from the impact of these policies, therefore they're irrelevant to you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I should never underestimate the drawing power of irrational fear and hate.

The irrational fear and hate that female humans have about... not wanting strange males to have the right-by-law to look at them naked without consent?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you think people should be trying to get away from gender roles, it it bizarre that you are so attached to the idea of 'man' and 'woman' referring to gender rather than sex. If 'man' just means 'adult human male' you can have any personality, role and self-expression and still be a man because all you need to do to be a man is be adult and male. If 'man' refers to gender and that is separate from sex, you have to do things to be a man other than be adult and male, and these things always involve conforming in some way to stereotypes.

QFT

 

[angrysoba]

Also, I don't know why but that crochet reference reminds me of the Manic Streat Peachers song in which they extolled the virtues of the death penalty:

“A drained white body hangs from the gallows/ Is more righteous than Hindley’s crochet lectures.”

That would suggest crochet can co-exist with heinous evil acts.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There is a genuine issue with sports, because they will test positive for the SRY gene and some people think they may have an edge. However the only properly worked out policy I saw recently explicitly provided for people with CAIS to be permitted to enter the women's events.

I imagine the scenario plays out thus:

1. Cheek swab comes back XY - everyone is shocked, including Alex who has every feature of a female that is visible to the naked eye, and whose gyno didn't even know their karyotype was atypical
2. Secondary test comes back positive for SRY... and everyone raises an eyebrow because Alex has absolutely NONE of the physical attributes that SRY prompts
3. Tertiary testing comes back with a diagnosis of CAIS... and everyone says "Ahh, that makes sense. Alex can compete in the female event"

And the world moves on

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not needed as my user name is location based - I live in Aber-

I have a step uncle in Aberystwyth. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're moderately near each other?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Look, I'm not intentionally being an annoying twat. I am genuinely confused why society uses a gender label when they want to segregate sex, then problems arise and no one sees the stupidity of using one label to mean a different label. This seem genuinely stupid to me?

For the bazillionth time...

The "gender label" that you are complaining about is NOT generally used as a gender indicator, it's generally used as a sex label.

In english, the word women has a well-established historical and current definition of "adult human female". This is the term used that simultaneously identifies sex and species. It functions in the exact same way that the words mare, hen, vixen, goose, nanny, cow, and doe function.

Why are you so hell-bent on stripping human females of our humanity?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If anyone thinks that there is or ever was strict sex segregation, especially with force of law in these Great United States, they are very deeply confused.

Eta: barring those few aforementioned red states with their new potty laws

We didn't used to *need* to make a law about it. It was social convention, and it was respected by all and sundry without someone having to get all parental about it. Now, however, some people can't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ behave themselves, so now we need a law.

Anecdote: My BFF had a 4yo child whose room persistently smelled like pee. They cleaned everything thoroughly, over and over, but the smell just kept coming back. They asked the kid several times if they'd had an accident, and the kid kept saying no, they hadn't had an accident or peed the bed or anything. After about a month, the smell was really bad and started getting ammoniacal. They finally traced it to the heat register on the floor. After much discussion, they finally figured out the the kid had been peeing in the register at night because they didn't want to cross the hall to the bathroom. The end result of this was my BFF saying "I never thought I'd have to make a rule about not peeing in the heat register, but here we are. Now we have that rule."

 

[zooterkin]

What's a 'heat register'?

 

[Matthew Best]

If only there were some way of finding stuff out by searching for it.

 

[theprestige]

What's a 'heat register'?

Better yet: What's a woman?

 

[smartcooky]

What's a 'heat register'?

Google Search

 

[Thermal]

Better yet: What's a woman?

Off topic. Heat registers are not registers.

 

[theprestige]

Off topic. Heat registers are not registers.

Also, "heat" is misleading, because sometimes they're not producing (registering?) heat. We need a separate category for things that follow the heat register developmental pathway, but are not currently at this very moment producing heat. For example, a register that's not connected to a functional heating system cannot properly be called a "heat" register. Home inspection regulations must account for every possible Disorder of Register Development, otherwise they are entirely bogus and no home inspection can possibly be valid for any purpose in any context.