Should sanctuary cities be tolerated?

Hercules56 said:
Still wrong.

I have never said anything bad or negative about legal immigrants. I fully support them and support a generous and large yearly immigration and asylum policy.
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We are better off without them though because some of them will commit crimes. So collectively we are vastly better off with out them.
 
acbytesla said:
Yes you did when you posted that illegal aliens pose a crime problem. When in relationship to everyone else they don't. You're making them less important than others. It's discrimination and it's dehumanizing. Can't you see that?
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No, its not. Keep clutching those pearls. Oh, the humanity!!!
 
ponderingturtle said:
We are better off without them though because some of them will commit crimes. So collectively we are vastly better off with out them.
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Yes, we are better off without illegal immigrants. Its not rocket science.

One reason being they contribute to our overall crime numbers.
 
Hercules56 said:
Yes, we are better off without illegal immigrants. Its not rocket science.

One reason being they contribute to our overall crime numbers.
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At a far lower rate than Donald Trump does. At a far lower rate than his staff does. At a far lower rate than the Republican party. At a far lower rate than your neighbors. Gee, I'm really frightened.
 
bruto said:
Well, to be fair, he's not quite doing that. He's arguing total numbers versus rates. If one illegal alien commits a crime, it is technically true that excluding all illegal aliens would reduce the total crimes in the country. If we presume as well that the presence of all those aliens has no other benefit, then his case is made. One can think of a few ways this might be considered overly simplistic, but horses for courses and all that.
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It's one of those cases where you can take a statistic and use it to support completely opposite points. For example:
  • Some illegal immigrants commit crimes. If they weren't here, neither would those crimes. therefore, Illegal aliens add to the number of crimes in the country.
  • Some illegal aliens commit crimes, but they do so at a lower rate than the rest of the population. As a result, the presence of illegal aliens lowers the per capita crime rate, and therefore the likelihood that any given person will be the victim of a crime.
I love stupid statistical games.
 
Hercules56 said:
Thank you.

One important reason to detain and deport all illegals is to reduce crime. Its just one of many reasons.
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Don't forget, though, that this argument is useful only if there is no balancing benefit. And that simply reducing crime by itself can be achieved in many ways, including those that are utterly wrong. Many things can be done if you're interested only in arithmetic, but not everyone will agree on the price.
 
TomB said:
It's one of those cases where you can take a statistic and use it to support completely opposite points. For example:
  • Some illegal immigrants commit crimes. If they weren't here, neither would those crimes. therefore, Illegal aliens add to the number of crimes in the country.
  • Some illegal aliens commit crimes, but they do so at a lower rate than the rest of the population. As a result, the presence of illegal aliens lowers the per capita crime rate, and therefore the likelihood that any given person will be the victim of a crime.
I love stupid statistical games.
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A global nuclear war would drop the crime numbers so low.
 
TomB said:
It's one of those cases where you can take a statistic and use it to support completely opposite points. For example:
  • Some illegal immigrants commit crimes. If they weren't here, neither would those crimes. therefore, Illegal aliens add to the number of crimes in the country.
  • Some illegal aliens commit crimes, but they do so at a lower rate than the rest of the population. As a result, the presence of illegal aliens lowers the per capita crime rate, and therefore the likelihood that any given person will be the victim of a crime.
I love stupid statistical games.
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Statistics definitely can get used dishonestly. But I'm not arguing that illegal aliens lowers the crime rate. Only that crime shouldn't be used as a reason to single them out.
 
acbytesla said:
I find that reasonable. But let's not turn them into the boogeyman.
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Other than the actual boogeymen that are exploiting lax immigration enforcement to expand their criminal operations. Literal gang members of foreign gangs should be singled out for being literal foreign gang members who are here illegally.
 
Hercules56 said:
I haven't dehumanized anyone.
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You may not be aware of having done so, and may not have intended to do so, but by qualifying the issue with a single, numerical standard, you have, whether you like it or not. You have said, quite literally, that because a few illegal immigrants are likely to commit crimes, and since those crimes would not be committed if they were not here, then all illegal immigrants should be excluded. And since such an action takes absolutely no regard for other circumstances, it is indeed dehumanization. You need to stop confusing simple fact with a conception of what is morally appropriate. It is dehumanization by definition, and that is the case even if it is right.
 

theprestige said:
Other than the actual boogeymen that are exploiting lax immigration enforcement to expand their criminal operations. Literal gang members of foreign gangs should be singled out for being literal foreign gang members who are here illegally.
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I don't disagree with singling out actual boogeymen. But that isn't what Hercules and Trump are doing with this rhetoric.
 
acbytesla said:
Statistics definitely can get used dishonestly. But I'm not arguing that illegal aliens lowers the crime rate. Only that crime shouldn't be used as a reason to single them out.
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Sorry, I was actually adding on in support of your response to Hercules56.
 
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