Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I don't really think that thread is any more appropriate to be honest. That's the one started to corral Steersman from seagulling his weird interpretation of the present continuous tense over every thread about the issue.

It's related to the trans issue in that it seems to be something trans activists are promoting very heavily. After all, if anyone can be a woman just by saying so, then why isn't a man with (e.g.) 5ARD a woman too, if he wants to be? It's my impression that it's pressure from the trans lobby that has stood in the way of proper sex testing being reintroduced. It might even have been their doing that it was discontinued in the first place. A bit difficult to keep saying that sex is a spectrum and you can choose your place on it if there is a context where people are doing very binary tests and acting on the results.

Originally the sex testing was intended to keep out normal male ringers from women's events. This had happened a few times, where unscrupulous nations had simply got a slightly-built male athlete to pretend to be a woman, given him the right paperwork, and entered him. When they looked at the results the line taken was that not a single male imposter had been detected so what was the point in spending all that money. It didn't seem to occur to anyone that it was the knowledge that the testing was in place that stopped the attempts to field male ringers. The tests did find a small number of competitors with the SRY gene, but none of them were disqualified. These seem to have included CAIS, PAIS and 5ARD, but they were permitted to enter because they weren't deliberate male ringers. (The PAIS and 5ARD ones may well have been but these were more innocent times.)

So they stopped the routine testing and started making ad-hoc rules about athletes with DSDs. They seemed to be bending over backwards not to offend anyone who was alleged to have been registered as a girl at birth, rather than taking the line taken in 1969 with Erk Schinneger, which actually worked out pretty well in the end. This was all concurrent with the trans cult managing to infiltrate normal men into women's sports under the guise of lady feelz and mustn't discriminate against a woman just because she's male and other nonsenses. The hole they were digging just got deeper and deeper and the sorting out of the whole bloody mess really needs to be seen as a single issue.
 
theprestige said:
The debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right sports league for men with DSDs.
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The only point where there is real room for debate is what you do with CAIS, and if you decide that CAIS women are women, is it possible to define a clear bright line between CAIS and PAIS so that PAIS individuals are excluded. Everything else yields to the "if you have a functioning SRY gene, you are in the men's events, bud."
 
Rolfe said:
The only point where there is real room for debate is what you do with CAIS, and if you decide that CAIS women are women, is it possible to define a clear bright line between CAIS and PAIS so that PAIS individuals are excluded. Everything else yields to the "if you have a functioning SRY gene, you are in the men's events, bud."
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Of course. As responsible policymaking goes, having a provision for those edge cases is a good idea.

But as far as the debate about trans rights in public policy goes, @angrysoba knows as well as you do that these edge cases are a red herring.

Ask him if men should be entitled to override sex segregation whenever they want, see if his answer accounts for those edge cases. See if his answer accounts for any rational consideration at all.
 
Here's the full story of the leaked results. The fact that the lab concerned is in Delhi simply reflects the location of the competition where the question came up.

www.3wiresports.com

Imane Khelif, the IOC, World Boxing and mandatory sex testing | 3 Wire Sports

The female category in sport is for women and girls – individuals with XX chromosomes. Identity is not biology. To pretend otherwise is not only to make a mockery of any notion of fairness but, in the case of boxing, risk serious injury or worse. Now, with Algeria’s Imane Khelif said to be on t
www.3wiresports.com www.3wiresports.com

ETA: And here is the full page of the lab report.

1748820713659.jpeg
 
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Rolfe said:
Originally the sex testing was intended to keep out normal male ringers from women's events. This had happened a few times, where unscrupulous nations had simply got a slightly-built male athlete to pretend to be a woman, given him the right paperwork, and entered him. When they looked at the results the line taken was that not a single male imposter had been detected so what was the point in spending all that money. It didn't seem to occur to anyone that it was the knowledge that the testing was in place that stopped the attempts to field male ringers.
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This is exactly the rationale behind drug testing in sports. Even though it is very expensive, and rarely catches anyone, the fact that every participating sportsman and sportswoman knows that drug testing is randomly and routinely done, actively discourages potential drug cheats.

Cricket at one time had a terrible reputation for match-fixing and spot-fixing scandals. Players would be approached by representatives of (mostly, but not exclusively) Indian betting syndicates to fix either match results, or more commonly, parts of matches (spot fixing). The ICC has been able to kerb this to a considerable extent by using fake representatives to make bogus offers to players. The players must report all approaches to their Nation's controlling body in a timely manner - if they fail to do so, they can be fined or even banned. The fact that the players cannot be sure whether any approach they get is genuine or bogus mostly keeps them honest.
 
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theprestige said:
Khelif isn't trans, he's just a cheat.
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They could be both, though, much like Lia Thomas.

It depends (IMO) on whether we think any process of transition is necessary to make someone trans, or whether it is enough to have a gender identity at odds with one's karyotype and phenotype.
 
Conversely, in the opposite direction, when Erik Schinneger (who was male, probably with the same condition as Semenya) adopted his true sex role after having been brought up as a girl, they labelled him "trans".

It's very striking how awkward and ungainly and "out of place" Erik looked as Erika, and how at home in his skin he became once the true situation had been discovered and he had made the "transition".
 
Sherkeu said:

Reuters: California to allow more girls in track and field finals after Trump pressure to drop transgender athlete ​


in essence: Actual female athletes who would have gone to State finals, if not for a male trans athlete, are now able to move up to compete as if there was no male. The males who qualified are still competing.

link
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The result was that the trans athlete won two gold medals, but apparently they made sure that a real girl also won a gold medal:

Hernandez, a junior at Jurupa Valley High School, wrapped up the night with a first-place finish in the triple jump, sharing the top spot with Kira Gant Hatcher, who
trailed by just over a half-meter.
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Note the highlighted--20 inches is a huge difference, but Hatcher still gets to say she won the California girls' state championship. Have they succeeded in splitting the baby? Just kidding, of course they haven't. Hernandez will probably take the scholarship that one of the lower finishers could have had.
 
Brainster said:
The result was that the trans athlete won two gold medals, but apparently they made sure that a real girl also won a gold medal:


Note the highlighted--20 inches is a huge difference, but Hatcher still gets to say she won the California girls' state championship. Have they succeeded in splitting the baby? Just kidding, of course they haven't. Hernandez will probably take the scholarship that one of the lower finishers could have had.
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What a complete farce!
 
At least we can ALL agree that chix with dix do NOT belong in womens' sporting events.

The whole reason why we have male female sporting events is because men have a physical advantage, and that includes chix with dix.

So it is unfair to let them compete with women. Let them compete with their fellow biological males.
 
Brainster said:
The result was that the trans athlete won two gold medals, but apparently they made sure that a real girl also won a gold medal:


Note the highlighted--20 inches is a huge difference, but Hatcher still gets to say she won the California girls' state championship. Have they succeeded in splitting the baby? Just kidding, of course they haven't. Hernandez will probably take the scholarship that one of the lower finishers could have had.
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Remember, ladies: It's a man's world. You only get to participate if and when a man says so, and you always get to come in second.
 
So in Cali for every transgirl who gets a spot, an additional non-tranny has to also get a spot?

I gets that's more fair than not, but it still means the chix with dix gets to compete against physically inferior ladies.

And thats not fair.
 
Hercules56 said:
So in Cali for every transgirl who gets a spot, an additional non-tranny has to also get a spot?

I gets that's more fair than not, but it still means the chix with dix gets to compete against physically inferior ladies.

And thats not fair.
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Gratuitously transphobic language is not called for. If you have a problem with the anti-social, misogynistic agenda of trans rights activists (TRAs), then say so. This kind of hate speech against transwomen in general is part of the problem, not the solution.
 
theprestige said:
Gratuitously transphobic language is not called for. If you have a problem with the anti-social, misogynistic agenda of trans rights activists (TRAs), then say so. This kind of hate speech against transwomen in general is part of the problem, not the solution.
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Its not hate speech.
 
The New York Times is airing a six-part podcast called The Protocol on transgender healthcare for minors, and the TRAs are trying the concern troll tactic:

To state the obvious: this isn't about being "too sensitive" or unable to handle legitimate journalism. This is about a pattern of coverage so problematic that it prompted over 1,200 New York Times contributors, including myself, to sign an open letter in February 2023 criticizing the paper's "editorial bias" in transgender reporting. It's about coverage so skewed that attorneys general in multiple states have cited NYT articles in legal briefs to justify criminalizing gender-affirming care.
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If they've lost the NY Times....
 
Brainster said:
The result was that the trans athlete won two gold medals, but apparently they made sure that a real girl also won a gold medal:


Note the highlighted--20 inches is a huge difference, but Hatcher still gets to say she won the California girls' state championship. Have they succeeded in splitting the baby? Just kidding, of course they haven't. Hernandez will probably take the scholarship that one of the lower finishers could have had.
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It's sex-based sports leagues with extra steps, that somehow make a mockery of women's sports and of transwomen at the same time.
 
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