Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Aber]

The claim put forth is that it does happen, and is self evidently inevitable. I don't find any higher burden on myself to provide negative evidence, other than to point out that if it was happening, it should be observable.

The problem is that you focusing on assaults as the key issue, and advancing the argument that as there is little or no evidence, everything is fine.

You have not been listening to the female posters who have been pointing out that the issue is far wider, especially the impact of the male gaze on privacy and dignity, and the impact via self-exclusion of females, which IS documented, especially in schools which have introduced gender neutral toilets.

 

[Aber]

Wow. There certainly seems to be a "class element" here.....

See Luxury Beliefs...

 

[smartcooky]

I think that anyone who finds themselves on the same side of a social issue as the Rapist-in-Chief and the Maga scum should really think about that....

You're being too... ahem "binary"

If you think being defending women's rights makes us MAGA, you have a lot to learn about the world. That you think this issue is tribally black and white is adorable. Childish, idealistic, naive and lacking nuance... but still adorable.

 

[smartcooky]

This is what happens when you view everything through the lens of partisan politics. The merits of the trans issue itself don’t matter, only where it stands in relation to Trump. That’s why people end up saying stupid ◊◊◊◊ like it’s unscientific to view sex as binary.

Like Marxism, you need to be educated into believing such nonsense.

I'd argue that its more that just education. It requires brainwashing and indoctrination.

As Ned Stark's now famous meme rightly points out...

 

[Ziggurat]

I'd argue that its more that just education. It requires brainwashing and indoctrination.

That’s sort of the point. A lot of what passes for education is indoctrination.

 

[theprestige]

I think that anyone who finds themselves on the same side of a social issue as the Rapist-in-Chief and the Maga scum should really think about that....

I know he looms large, like a Mount Rushmore over the South Dakota of the mind, but not everything is about Trump.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd be more upset about this if I saw some convincing science about how hormone therapy is an ethical and effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

You might be surprised how often the science supporting the current standard of care is unconvincing upon close inspection.

Nevertheless, I'd argue that the standard treatments for every diagnosis in the DSM ought to be covered by health insurance.

It's at least a bit sus to carve out exactly one exception like this.

I think that anyone who finds themselves on the same side of a social issue as the Rapist-in-Chief and the Maga scum should really think about that....

This isn't really an argument, though.

 

[theprestige]

You might be surprised how often the science supporting the current standard of care is unconvincing upon close inspection.

Nevertheless, I'd argue that the standard treatments for every diagnosis in the DSM ought to be covered by health insurance.

It's at least a bit sus to carve out exactly one exception like this.

This isn't really an argument, though.

Neither is "at least a bit sus".

Who do you imagine we should be suspicious of? What do you imagine we should suspect them of being up to?

 

[Ziggurat]

You might be surprised how often the science supporting the current standard of care is unconvincing upon close inspection.

Nevertheless, I'd argue that the standard treatments for every diagnosis in the DSM ought to be covered by health insurance.

It's at least a bit sus to carve out exactly one exception like this.

Is it really the only exception? Have you (or anyone else) gone through the DSM and verified that every other standard treatment in there has mandated insurance coverage? That would be a bit surprising.

And I don't see anything particularly suspect about making it a carveout, because it really is unique. Other conditions in the DSM don't have a radical activist network pushing treatment propaganda. Nor do most purely psychological conditions call for medical treatment as the standard of care. I'm all for covering therapy for people with gender dysphoria, but there's no reason to make me pay for doctors to mutilate someone's genitals because they have a hard time coming to terms with reality.

 

[Ziggurat]

What do you imagine we should suspect them of being up to?

Being transphobic, probably. Not that I think he's correct, but I think that's his suggestion.

 

[theprestige]

Being transphobic, probably. Not that I think he's correct, but I think that's his suggestion.

Seems sus to me.

 

[catsmate]

This is what happens when you view everything through the lens of partisan politics. The merits of the trans issue itself don’t matter, only where it stands in relation to Trump. That’s why people end up saying stupid ◊◊◊◊ like it’s unscientific to view sex as binary.

Right.....

Like Marxism, you need to be educated into believing such nonsense.

Utter drivel. Why do feel the need to drag Marxism into a discussion of basic civil rights?

 

[catsmate]

It's fascinating how people have been brainwashed into considering that trans rights are a threat to women, and how are easily they can be manipulated with this issue.
Thankfully I'm not in UKia.

 

[Ziggurat]

Right.....

Utter drivel. Why do feel the need to drag Marxism into a discussion of basic civil rights?

You didn't make an argument about civil rights. You made an argument about science. That was your claim. Did you forget?

 

[varwoche]

I think that anyone who finds themselves on the same side of a social issue as the Rapist-in-Chief and the Maga scum should really think about that....

My take is that it's hugely unfortunate that lefties have fallen down an ideological rabbit hole and ceded reality to Maga scum. Ugh. It practically makes me sick given the election outcome.

 

[Rolfe]

It's fascinating how people have been brainwashed into considering that trans rights are a threat to women, and how are easily they can be manipulated with this issue.
Thankfully I'm not in UKia.

I don't think the women and girls who have lost sporting trophies and opportunities to men and boys would agree that they've been brainwashed. To mention just one aspect.

 

[d4m10n]

Have you (or anyone else) gone through the DSM and verified that every other standard treatment in there has mandated insurance coverage? That would be a bit surprising.

I don't think it would be surprising either way, but the point of health insurance is to provide standard health care for known diagnoses. It might be that some conditions are truly untreatable, but that isn't the case with gender dysphoria.

I'm all for covering therapy for people with gender dysphoria, but there's no reason to make me pay for doctors to mutilate someone's genitals because they have a hard time coming to terms with reality.

I don't believe there are any good studies showing that therapy alone outperforms other treatment modalities such as cross-sex hormones, so you must be basing this on something other than scientific research.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think it would be surprising either way, but the point of health insurance is to provide standard health care for known diagnoses.

I disagree. The purpose is to pool risk for coverage for necessary care. Sex denial surgery and cross-sex hormone treatment are not necessary. Optional care is optional, and there is no need to pool risk for coverage for it, even if it's "standard".

It might be that some conditions are truly untreatable, but that isn't the case with gender dysphoria.

It's not "untreatable" which I object to, it's "unnecessary".

I don't believe there are any good studies showing that therapy alone outperforms other treatment modalities such as cross-sex hormones, so you must be basing this on something other than scientific research.

There are not good studies showing therapy is better, just as there are no studies showing that medical intervention is better. The decision to make medical intervention "standard" is therefore suspect, and requiring funding for it unjustified. If insurers choose to provide coverage and individuals choose to buy plans that provide such coverage, I'm fine with that, but I'm not fine with having that forced on me or anyone else.

 

[Rolfe]

UK Supreme Court Rules Water Is Wet | Helen Dale

How the UK Supreme Court Came to Affirm that Men Are Men and Women Are Women.

www.civitasinstitute.org

A friend pointed out something that I'd missed. Some years ago Stonewall was lobbying explicitly for the single-sex exemptions in the EA to be removed. It's quite clear from this that they knew exactly what the law actually was, and it wasn't what they wanted it to be, and they wanted it changed. However they realised that simply pretending that the law was as they wanted it to be was easier than getting it changed.

It's a nice grift if you can pull it off. Offer your services to organisations, for a (pretty steep) price, to train them on the law. Take the money and train them on the law as you would like it to be rather than as it is. Several people pointed this out, but that didn't stop it happening. Organisations were happy to pay to outsource this function, and simply took Stonewall's word for it. Many became very invested in the scenario they were being "trained" in - the training was very cleverly designed in that respect - and are now screaming blue murder because it has turned out that they paid for a lie and became committed to a lie.

Stonewall knew all along it was a lie.

 

[smartcooky]

It's fascinating how people have been brainwashed into considering that trans rights are a threat to women, and how are easily they can be manipulated with this issue.
Thankfully I'm not in UKia.

No-one here believes or even suggests that trans-rights are a threat to women.

Transpeople have exactly the same rights as everyone else to express themselves however they wish, to dress however they please, to call themselves whatever they want, to sleep with any consenting adult who wishes to sleep with them. They also have the same protections regarding employment, housing, freedom of speech and personal safety everyone else is entitled to. What IS a threat to women is the additional, exclusive privileges they want over and above the rights of others - additional privileges that abrogate and take away the rights of others. That is unacceptable to me.