Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Planigale]

How do the above reasons for having a defense lawyer present during questioning compare to Knox's situation during the interrogation? Did the Italian police and prosecutor (Mignini) deny Knox a lawyer for the purpose of defeating the aims of the ECHR for insisting that a defense lawyer must be present from the first questioning?

Note also that had the police and prosecutor identified Knox as a suspect prior to the questioning of the interrogation, she would have been entitled to the presence of a defense lawyer during the questioning (CPP Article 364, paragraphs 1 - 4). Furthermore, the questioning could only be carried out lawfully if the rules for questioning explained in CPP Article 64 were followed. These rules include the following paragraphs (summarized here):

1. the suspected person participates freely in the questioning [meaning without coercion and with only necessary security measures];

2. the requirements of CPP Article 188 apply, that is, methods or techniques that can influence the freedom of self-determination or alter the ability to recall and evaluate the facts shall not be used;

3. Before the questioning begins, the person shall be warned:
a) her statements can always be used against her,
b) she has the right to silence,
c) if she makes any statement on facts concerning the liability of others, she will become a witness in relation to those facts [possibly a warning against calunnia];

3-bis. If the provisions of paragraph 3, subparagraphs a) and b) are not fulfilled, the statements made by the person questioned shall not be used. If the warning of paragraph 3, subparagraph c) is not given, the statements made regarding the liability of others shall not be used, and the person shall not be a witness in relation to those facts.

So what did the police and prosecutor obtain by denying a lawyer for Knox and questioning her as a witness - allowing them to avoid the warnings of paragraph 3. With no lawyer for Knox present, there was no advocate to protect her defense rights, such as the right to remain silent and to make clear to her that the police suspected her of a serious crime. Although neither a witness nor a suspect may be lawfully coerced during questioning, the absence of a lawyer for Knox allowed the police, according to Knox's statement, to coerce her with threats and violence (hits on the head). The absence of a bilingual lawyer also allowed for the interpreter's suggestive subterfuge of discussing her own (alleged) traumatic amnesia, and the interpreter's failure to help Knox present her version of the facts.

Thus, it seems certain to me that the police and prosecutor Mignini intended to conduct the interrogation of their chosen suspect, Knox, without a lawyer for the purpose of obtaining, even by means of coercion and the denial of defense rights, an incriminating statement from her. Recall also that according to Sollecito's account in his book Honor Bound, his interrogation for which he had been summoned to the police station, began prior to that of Knox and focused on inducing or coercing him to abandon her alibi - that she had been with him at his apartment - at the relevant time.

Sources:

Page Expired

The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa. Wolters Kluwer Italia (C) 2014

i agree. this was obviously a common practice to evade the law requiring counsel. We were just interviewing as a witness so we didn't have to record the interrogation, or have legal counsel present. I suspect it was not the first time Mignini had used the 'I'm just hear to record your statement' lie as a way to avoid the presence of a defence lawyer.

It was particularly invidious given the long coercive interrogation throughout the night, carried out in a foreign language, of a foreign national without notifying the embassy.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I had Nikolaas Tinbergen's Study of Instinct on my reading list; instinct is borne out of many hundreds of thousands of years of evolution; for example, a herring gull recognises other herring gulls by a black spot under their beak, on their neck. Likewise, predators hunt, stalk and capture prey through animal instinct; a vulture has evolved an incredibly keen eyesight and acute sense of smell and thus can locate carrion at ten paces, or should I say ten flaps of the wing. Human predatory behaviour normally refers to a calculated targetting of prey, which needs little elaborating as to how they operate. In the case of a prosecutor, he or she only becomes involved in a case once the crime has been committed. As a prosecutor, you will have had to sit numerous public exams to qualify, not to mention work experience to become proficient enough to be promoted to public prosecutor of an entire region. In Italy, prosecutors generally have a whole caseload of crimes. In the Kercher murder, Mignini shelved all of his other cases to concentrate on this one. He saw the body. He saw Mez' open staring eyes. The last thing she would have seen was her killer's cruel face, as her life slowly expired over the course of at least ten minutes. In the Questura the same day the body was found, AK shouted, of course she ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ suffered, she had her throat slit!

Mignini acting as prosecutor on behalf of the Italian State for the victim, Meredith Kercher, made it his duty to bring the perpetrator/s to justice. That is his job. Nothing to do with being the predator of "Knox [who] was vulnerable in several ways - a young foreign student not familiar with Italian culture, not fluent in Italian, far from older and more experienced advisors, lacking a lawyer, highly trusting and naive, and with an alibi dependent on a new boyfriend who was a native Italian but also trusting, naive, and lacking a lawyer'. This came after the crime.

A famous FBI profiler, the name escapes me - said the key to solving a crime is to analyse what happened immediately before the crime and then also, immediately after. So, immediately before the crime:

• Knox spent Halloween mostly alone wandering the streets looking for company
• AK had texted Mez several times to try to engage with her over Halloween.
• Mez gave her the cold shoulder and went off with her friends, snubbing KA's texts.
• Sollecito, a Roman Catholic, not used to the same US enthusiasm for Halloween was busy swotting for exams.
• Next day, Mez was off out yet again to see some friends. AK and RS noted she still had vampire paint in her chin.
• AK and RS had a mysterious two or thee hour break in town which they kept quiet about.
• AK doesn't mention this trip into town in her Prison Dairy where she lists what she did 1 Nov 2007.
• In his early police interview when asked by the police why they went into town, RS was evasive and said they needed provisions.
• When police asked him for the receipts, RS changed his story and said once they reached the Old Town they realised they didn't need any provisions after all.
• Mignini believes they were probably looking for drugs/ and were drugged (both said after the murder they would never take drugs again).
• Not needing to go into work and with AK responding to Patrick from Grimana Square, placing her there, switched off her phone about 20 mins later at 20:45 and RS likewise shortly after.
• The pair appeared to be stalking Mez, waiting for her to return to the cottage (~ predatory behaviour).
• Kokomani believes he saw three of them - he knew Guede from before - hanging around near the bin area lying in wait and brandishing a knife.
• Claims he heard a foreign (English?) voice shouting and sounds of a thud coming from the cottage.
• Two neighbours heard a harrowing scream.
• The next morning, the postal police found AK and RS at 12:30 hanging around at the scene, surprised to see him.
• AK didn't turn her phone back on until 12:07, after which she quickly rang each of Mex' phones.
• She didn't tell Filomena her window was smashed until Filomena rang her back some 25mins later.
• RS rang his sister for advice and then the Carabinieri at circa 12;54.
• AK then rang her mother in the US just before the door was kicked down.
• AK and RS stood well back when the door was broken down.
• Whilst everyone was deeply upset, AK was seen to be unmoved.
• AK and RS began showing great affection towards each other but divorced from the grief everyone else was going through.
• AK had a great emotional breakdown when she realised police could place her in Grimana Piazza.
• Having switched off her phone, she realised she could be located immediately prior to that act.
• She had deleted Lumumba's message to her not to come in.
• She intended to conceal she had a free evening.
• The pair fixed it to make out hey were watching a film but apart from an auto download, there was no other activity on the computer in RS' apartment.
• RS said he had been on the computer all evening. His internet provider said he had not at all.
• RS had a 'flood' in his apartment which he initially denied and tried to brush off as minor.
• AK was seen buying cleaning fluids early next morning and turning out of the door of the shop in the direction of the cottage.
• The pair played Nirvana and Fight Club at about 5:00am and RS took a message from his dad at abut 6:00am, despite claiming he slept until 10:00.
• RS dismantled the U-bend of his sink. He claims it fell off of its own accord.
• He had a couple off large bottles of ACE bleach which his cleaner said she never used.
• Police found a bucketful of latex gloves.
• When police entered his apartment they noticed a 'strong smell of bleach'.
• Knox had changed into a white skirt. Said she had a shower to blow dry her hair but it looked unwashed.
• The pair looked utterly exhausted.

So now you know why police might have found the pair's behaviour highly suspicious and it was nothing to do with their being predators and 'a vulnerable young person from abroad' their prey. Scientists identified the person who plunged the knife into Mez' neck as being Knox, from DNA. The charge was 'Aggravated' murder due to the extremely cruel method of death and the rape. The body was covered by a duvet indicating someone other than a random burglar.

I (and any of the other active participants in the thread) could spend several hours researching and writing a point-by-point rebuttal of all your stupid guilter talking points, but it would be futile, because you'd just ignore or handwave anything you thought you couldn't answer, the way you always do. So why don't you turn over a new leaf and start making an honest effort to answer questions that are clearly problematic to your claim that Amanda and Raffaele are still factually guilty, despite their having been exonerated by the Court of Cassation?

 

[Myriad]

Remember the comic was unread, wrapped in its cellophane cover, the police unwrapped it (destroying its value), so one cannot claim that this in any way influenced Solicito or Knox, only the police. Also Solicito did not have a collection of manga, nor of vampire literature. (unlike many teen age girls of that era who would have had one or more of the many series of supernatural romance novels, videos, posters featuring dark brooding anti heroes e.g. Angel, Edward Cullen, Bill Complton, Lestrade or my own favourite Spike!)

Imagine if Knox or Sollecito had a copy of the Bible! Murder, rape, torture, genocide...

Or an HBO subscription.

Or a video game console.

Only the most depraved of psychopaths would have any of those things!

 

[SpitfireIX]

Vixen, I'd still like to know exactly HOW Filomena could know when and if Meredith locked her door considering she was gone most of the time either at work or at her boyfriend's. A camera in the hallway? An alert on her phone whenever Meredith's door was locked? Did she get a tingly feeling?

In addition to the fact that Vixen is making herself look desperate and foolish (as usual) with her "Whenever Amanda and x disagree, Amanda is obviously lying" schtick, this is also a red herring. As I've mentioned, no matter which one of them was right, they still wouldn't have expected Meredith's door to have been locked.

 

[Vixen]

We were talking about Mignini. You said Mignini thought there was a connection between the murder and a page of a manga in which an ancient vampire was killed. Did Mignini think MK was an ancient vampire? You also said Mignini was right in thinking there was a connection. Do you also think MK was an ancient vampire? That's the only way there could be a connection.

In building up a profile of a suspect, their background, personality, interests and previous convictions do become relevant. Sollecito did have a troubling FB page in which he dressed up as a mad scientist wrapped in a shroud (made of toilet paper), his face covered, waving a massive butchers cleaver and a beaker with a strange lotion. He bragged of all his druggy experiences and declared he wanted 'extreme experiences'. He had attacked a schoolmate with scissors and had been reported as having viewed animal porn. Is your FB page anything like this? What would it say about you as a person? Knox did bully her student chums in Washington, one of whom remembered it so vividly, she got in touch with Perugia police to report it. Did you ever bully your co-students or housemates? Did you ever get a ticket for an anti-social house party that terrified your neighbours? Did you write graphic stories about girls being raped and murdered? '"The thing you need to know about chicks is that no means yes" said Kyle.' As Mignini points out, this paints a picture of someone with a transgressive personality. Such profiling helps detectives build up a picture of motive and the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks and then stage a burglary to make it seem the perfect crime, rather like Leopold and Loeb. Knox had previous experience in setting up a mise-en-scène, for the distasteful kicks from seeing the distress of another. Like Leopold and Loeb, the pair soon discovered various 'mistakes' in their execution led to their own downfall. For example, Knox' uncontrollable emotional reaction caused by her ANS, to having been revealed as being in Grimana Piazza just prior to the pair switching off their phones. Likewise, when the three surviving roommates where taken to the cottage to do an inventory of what was missing, Knox had a massive nervous breakdown in front of the knife drawer. I believe at this point she confessed to Mignini (unusable evidence) and Napoleoni led her to the police car covered with a blanket, the way one would with a murder suspect.

Yes, so the retrieval of a manga comic at Sollecito's appartment depicting the slaying of a 900-year-old vampire in which one of the illustrations depicted the position in which Mez was found was salient, as was RS and AK informing the police in early interviews that Mez still had some vampire paint on her chin from the night before, the last time (the claim) they saw her. RS also noted Mez was wearing her boyfriend's old jeans (the b/f in England). All of this adds up for a prosecutor. Vampires - Halloween - slaying thereof. All Souls Eve.

RS when told his knife was revealed by forensic experts to be the likely murder knife, his immediate response was to tell the police he had pricked Mez' hand whilst cooking. But she had never been to his flat.


Posecutors and police are used to seeing people's bod langauge reactions. Border guards in training are told to look out for individuals profusely sweating (they have no control over their ANS nerves) or trembling as they go through customs. Knox was trembling like a leaf when confronted with the kitchen drawer of knives and when her message to Patrik flashed up on her mobile. Sollecito OTOH was all together more creepy, Mignini describes him as being 'icy cold'.





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[Myriad]

In the Questura the same day the body was found, AK shouted, of course she ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ suffered, she had her throat slit!

This proves AK's innocence! Because MK's throat wasn't slit, her neck was stabbed, a distinction you yourself were vehemently arguing the importance of a few pages ago.

 

[Vixen]

This proves AK's innocence! Because MK's throat wasn't slit, her neck was stabbed, a distinction you yourself were vehemently arguing the importance of a few pages ago.

AK was too ignorant to know the difference. But she knew all of the gory details and that Mez, 'had suffered'. AK was strangely high. A bit like Joanna Dennehy after she went on her killing spree.

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[TruthCalls]

In building up a profile of a suspect, their background, personality, interests and previous convictions do become relevant. Sollecito did have a troubling FB page in which he dressed up as a mad scientist wrapped in a shroud (made of toilet paper), his face covered, waving a massive butchers cleaver and a beaker with a strange lotion. He bragged of all his druggy experiences and declared he wanted 'extreme experiences'.

You call it a troubling FB page. To others, it's just Raffaele clowning around. Of course, you can't cite a single time in Raffaele's life where he exhibited violence, so you have to try to build up a perfectly innocent picture into something it isn't.

He had attacked a schoolmate with scissors and had been reported as having viewed animal porn.

You know damn well this is a lie. Volturno went to the school to investigate and reported there was no evidence Raffaele attacked a schoolmate with scissors. That you're still repeating this lie speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Knox did bully her student chums in Washington, one of whom remembered it so vividly, she got in touch with Perugia police to report it. Did you ever bully your co-students or housemates?

Amanda, along with other roommates, pulled a prank on one of them. This is not bullying, it's a prank intended to make people laugh.

Did you ever get a ticket for an anti-social house party that terrified your neighbours?

It was a party with loud music. How does your twisted mind conclude this is anti-social?

Did you write graphic stories about girls being raped and murdered?

ONE story, not "stories", and it was NOT about girls being raped and murdered. Rape is mentioned once as something that had already happened. The story is about a younger brother holding his older brother accountable for having raped a girl. It's a story of right and wrong, not rape. No murder had happened, nor is murder ever mentioned, so why lie about this?

As Mignini points out, this paints a picture of someone with a transgressive personality. Such profiling helps detectives build up a picture of motive and the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks and then stage a burglary to make it seem the perfect crime, rather like Leopold and Loeb.

Now you're on to something. Mignini's mental gymnastics are likely similar to yours. You've formed a conclusion, and as a result, you twist and distort everything in a desperate effort to turn innocuous events into an indication that someone would be inclined to commit the crime.

Knox had previous experience in setting up a mise-en-scène, for the distasteful kicks from seeing the distress of another.

Wrong. The prank was done to induce laughter. And, in fact, when Amanda and the others realized the roommate had been more distressed by the prank than they intended, they apologized. This act alone proves genuinely distressing the roommate was not what they wanted to achieve.

For example, Knox' uncontrollable emotional reaction caused by her ANS, to having been revealed as being in Grimana Piazza just prior to the pair switching off their phones.

Amanda's phone was turned off after she responded to Lumuma, just moments before Popovic showed up at Raffaele's apartment, and Amanda was there. There's no credible evidence they were ever at Grimana Piazza the night of the murder.

Likewise, when the three surviving roommates where taken to the cottage to do an inventory of what was missing, Knox had a massive nervous breakdown in front of the knife drawer. I believe at this point she confessed to Mignini (unusable evidence)...

So Amanda freaked out when she saw the knives, possibly thinking one of these could have been used to murder Meredith. There is nothing wrong with this reaction. And to be honest, no one cares what you believe... Amanda NEVER "confessed to Mignini".

...and Napoleoni led her to the police car covered with a blanket, the way one would with a murder suspect.

Well, perhaps that's because she WAS a murder suspect.

Yes, so the retrieval of a manga comic at Sollecito's appartment depicting the slaying of a 900-year-old vampire in which one of the illustrations depicted the position in which Mez was found was salient,...

And once again, you ignore what has been repeatedly pointed out - the comic book was still sealed in it's plastic bag, so no, it is NOT salient.

...as was RS and AK informing the police in early interviews that Mez still had some vampire paint on her chin from the night before, the last time (the claim) they saw her. RS also noted Mez was wearing her boyfriend's old jeans (the b/f in England).

So now it's improper to tell the police what you saw?

All of this adds up for a prosecutor. Vampires - Halloween - slaying thereof. All Souls Eve.

Yes, we know this. This indicates a problem with Mignini, as we know this is an obsession of his, but thanks for proving the point.

 

[Myriad]

In building up a profile of a suspect, their background, personality, interests and previous convictions do become relevant. Sollecito did have a troubling FB page in which he dressed up as a mad scientist wrapped in a shroud (made of toilet paper), his face covered, waving a massive butchers cleaver and a beaker with a strange lotion. He bragged of all his druggy experiences and declared he wanted 'extreme experiences'. He had attacked a schoolmate with scissors and had been reported as having viewed animal porn. Is your FB page anything like this? What would it say about you as a person? Knox did bully her student chums in Washington, one of whom remembered it so vividly, she got in touch with Perugia police to report it. Did you ever bully your co-students or housemates? Did you ever get a ticket for an anti-social house party that terrified yoru neighbours? Did you write graphic stories about girls being raped and murdered? '"The thing you need to know about chicks is that no means yes" said Kyle.' As Mignini points out, this paints a picture of someone with a transgressive personality. Such profiling helps detectives build up a picture of motive and the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks and then stage a burglary to make it seem the perfect crime, rather like Leopold and Loeb. Like Leopold and Loeb, they soon discovered various 'mistakes' in their execution led to their downfall. For example, Knox' uncontrollable emotional reaction caused by her ANS, to having been revealed as being in Grimana Piaaz just prior to the pair switching off her phone. Likewise, when the three surviving roommates where taken to the cottage to do an inventory of what was missing, Knox had a massive nervous breakdown in front of the knife drawer. I believe at this point she confessed to Mignini (unusable evidence) and Napoleoni led her to the police car covered with a blanket, the way one would with a murder suspect.

Yes, so the retrieval of a manga comic at Sollecito's appartment depeicting the slaying of a 900 year-old vampire in which one of the illustrations depicted the position in which Mez was found was salient, as was RS and AK informing the police in early interviews that Mez still had some vampire paint on her chin from the night before, the last time (the claim) they saw her. RS also noted Mez was wearing her boyfriend's old jeans (the b/f in England). All of this adds up for a prosecutor.

RS when told his knife was revealed by forensic experts to be the likely murder knife, his immediate response was to tell the police he had pricked Mez' hand whilst cooking. But she had never been to his flat.


Posecutors and police are used to seeing people's bod langauge reactions. Border guards in training are told to look out for individuals profusely sweating (they have no control over their ANS nerves) or trembling as they go through customs. Knox was trembling like a leaf when confronted with the kitchen drawer of knives and when her message to Patrik flashed up on her mobile. Sollecito OTOH was all together more creepy, Mignini describes him as being 'icy cold'.

Can you explain how RS and AK knew the position of the body depicted in the manga that was shrink-wrapped and unopened? Are they clairvoyant?

That question is salient.

By any chance was that position, "supine on the floor?" Because I would guess that a great many dead bodies in reality and in fiction are found or depicted in that same position. You've probably heard of gravity, but did you know they have that in Italy too?

Was the dead vampire in the manga covered with a sheet? If not, that's clear evidence against anyone trying to duplicate the manga scene.

(Let me guess, you're going to argue that the were trying to duplicate the manga picture, but because they'd never seen it, they got it wrong by putting the sheet over the body, all of which by double-secret-inverse-anti-logic proves how guilty they are!)

What exactly do the jeans worn by MK add up to? Do ancient vampires wear boys' old jeans? I thought they preferred formal wear.

I don't have your passion for obscure early-century European history but I have enjoyed many "transgressive" creative pursuits (for instance, LARP (in which the roles I've costumed for and played include mad scientists, assassins, vampires, spies, and warriors of various periods; as well as LARP design for which I've written and GM'd countless such roles for others), genre writing (most recently, deindustrial SF), and being lead designer of a 1990s computer game based on Gahan Wilson cartoon artwork about horror characters in a haunted house. That's all on top of my enjoyment of genre fiction, gaming, anime, etc. as a consumer/fan. I have viewed porn of all types, animal, vegetable, and mineral. At around AK's age I hosted an anti-social party in which a cathode ray television set (the only kind that existed at the time) was sacrificed in a mock Wiccan ritual; for another Halloween party I used masking tape to make a floor maze running through two floors, outdoor patios, and the surrounding yard. Both parties featured my unique pentacle cookies, which require precise assembly of two dozen separate pieces of chocolate and vanilla dough before slicing and baking.

I had never waved beakers with strange lotions until just now, after I read your post, at which point my thrill-seeking personality demanded I try it out. (It wasn't all that exciting. Please come up with better suggestions than that.)

Despite all that, I'm not the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks. So I can only conclude your criminal profiling skills are lacking. That is to say, nonexistent. Your "painted picture" is indistinguishable from taunting the nerds like a middle school bully. If Mignini indeed did the same kind of "profiling" as you claim, he's a fraud, and if he based his handling of the case on it he's a monster.

 

[TruthCalls]

AK was too ignorant to know the difference. But she knew all of the gory details and that Mez, 'had suffered'. AK was strangely high. A bit like Joanna Dennehy after she went on her killing spree.

Too ignorant to know the difference? Maybe you're too ignorant to know the difference, but there's no evidence to support your assertion that Amanda didn't know the difference.

What gory details did Amanda know? It's completely logical to conclude Meredith suffered, but she had other details, such as where the body was, wrong.

Strangely high? Care to elaborate?

 

[Myriad]

AK was too ignorant to know the difference.

That's correct, she was too ignorant of the details of the injuries to know the difference. Which she wouldn't have been, if she'd committed or observed the murder.

Awareness of cause and effect ("the person who's now a bloody murdered corpse must have suffered") doesn't equate to guilty knowledge.

 

[Vixen]

You call it a troubling FB page. To others, it's just Raffaele clowning around. Of course, you can't cite a single time in Raffaele's life where he exhibited violence, so you have to try to build up a perfectly innocent picture into something it isn't.

You know damn well this is a lie. Volturno went to the school to investigate and reported there was no evidence Raffaele attacked a schoolmate with scissors. That you're still repeating this lie speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Amanda, along with other roommates, pulled a prank on one of them. This is not bullying, it's a prank intended to make people laugh.

It was a party with loud music. How does your twisted mind conclude this is anti-social?

ONE story, not "stories", and it was NOT about girls being raped and murdered. Rape is mentioned once as something that had already happened. The story is about a younger brother holding his older brother accountable for having raped a girl. It's a story of right and wrong, not rape. No murder had happened, nor is murder ever mentioned, so why lie about this?

Now you're on to something. Mignini's mental gymnastics are likely similar to yours. You've formed a conclusion, and as a result, you twist and distort everything in a desperate effort to turn innocuous events into an indication that someone would be inclined to commit the crime.

Wrong. The prank was done to induce laughter. And, in fact, when Amanda and the others realized the roommate had been more distressed by the prank than they intended, they apologized. This act alone proves genuinely distressing the roommate was not what they wanted to achieve.

Amanda's phone was turned off after she responded to Lumuma, just moments before Popovic showed up at Raffaele's apartment, and Amanda was there. There's no credible evidence they were ever at Grimana Piazza the night of the murder.

So Amanda freaked out when she saw the knives, possibly thinking one of these could have been used to murder Meredith. There is nothing wrong with this reaction. And to be honest, no one cares what you believe... Amanda NEVER "confessed to Mignini".

Well, perhaps that's because she WAS a murder suspect.

And once again, you ignore what has been repeatedly pointed out - the comic book was still sealed in it's plastic bag, so no, it is NOT salient.

So now it's improper to tell the police what you saw?

Yes, we know this. This indicates a problem with Mignini, as we know this is an obsession of his, but thanks for proving the point.

None of this abnegates the fact there WAS a sadistic cruel murder, at Halloween/All Souls bank holiday, wherein the perps went back afterwards to clean up, pose the body and create a mise-en-scène in an elaborate act of deception, complete with broken window, strewn about clothing and the body undressed and set in an obscene position to make it look like a rape. You might call this clowning about and a prank, and I dare say, whilst the pair were high on drugs it seemed like a great laugh. The pages of the last couple of weeks torn out of her diary to hide the planning and fantasies of this sick pair. Mez was bullied, tortured by her tormentors: more than thirteen additional knife point jabs and bruising around the neck indicating strangulation and an extremely painful breaking of her hyoid bone. This was cruel calculated sadism not a chance burglary. Phones switched off for the duration. Committed by persons with a thrill-seeking need for domination and lesson teaching.




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[Vixen]

Can you explain how RS and AK knew the position of the body depicted in the manga that was shrink-wrapped and unopened? Are they clairvoyant?

That question is salient.

By any chance was that position, "supine on the floor?" Because I would guess that a great many dead bodies in reality and in fiction are found or depicted in that same position. You've probably heard of gravity, but did you know they have that in Italy too?

Was the dead vampire in the manga covered with a sheet? If not, that's clear evidence against anyone trying to duplicate the manga scene.

(Let me guess, you're going to argue that the were trying to duplicate the manga picture, but because they'd never seen it, they got it wrong by putting the sheet over the body, all of which by double-secret-inverse-anti-logic proves how guilty they are!)

What exactly do the jeans worn by MK add up to? Do ancient vampires wear boys' old jeans? I thought they preferred formal wear.

I don't have your passion for obscure early-century European history but I have enjoyed many "transgressive" creative pursuits (for instance, LARP (in which the roles I've costumed for and played include mad scientists, assassins, vampires, spies, and warriors of various periods; as well as LARP design for which I've written and GM'd countless such roles for others), genre writing (most recently, deindustrial SF), and being lead designer of a 1990s computer game based on Gahan Wilson cartoon artwork about horror characters in a haunted house. That's all on top of my enjoyment of genre fiction, gaming, anime, etc. as a consumer/fan. I have viewed porn of all types, animal, vegetable, and mineral. At around AK's age I hosted an anti-social party in which a cathode ray television set (the only kind that existed at the time) was sacrificed in a mock Wiccan ritual; for another Halloween party I used masking tape to make a floor maze running through two floors, outdoor patios, and the surrounding yard. Both parties featured my unique pentacle cookies, which require precise assembly of two dozen separate pieces of chocolate and vanilla dough before slicing and baking.

I had never waved beakers with strange lotions until just now, after I read your post, at which point my thrill-seeking personality demanded I try it out. (It wasn't all that exciting. Please come up with better suggestions than that.)

Despite all that, I'm not the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks. So I can only conclude your criminal profiling skills are lacking. That is to say, nonexistent. Your "painted picture" is indistinguishable from taunting the nerds like a middle school bully. If Mignini indeed did the same kind of "profiling" as you claim, he's a fraud, and if he based his handling of the case on it he's a monster.

It tells you what was at the forefront of their minds. Why would RS be remembering her jeans (which were later pullled off)? Why would the remants of makeup be the salient thing the pair recalled?

The prosecution had tried to link manga to the murder in January by telling the court that Sollecito's password for his computer was "AKIRAFUGA." Aki Fūga was the artist in the 1994 Shin Maō Dante remake (pictured at right) of Gō Nagai's Maō Dante (Demon Lord Dante) horror manga.

The crime was a senseless futile crime . It is a crime that DID happen. It is not a figment of Mignini's imagination. Do you really believe the stupid claim 'the comic strip was unread so he can't have done it'?


You are in denial.

Blaming the prosecutor when beyond a shadow of a doubt the pair were at the murder scene, did clean up, did create a theatrical scenario, did use horrible sadism in their act shows you cannot face reality. The idea of a witch hunt is equally ridiculous, when the main suspect was primarily Sollecito, a member of their own wealthy middle class Roman Catholic Italians, not dissimilar to the lawyers and judges, and not the unwashed scruff from America's vast working class suburbs, who simply couldn't resist bragging.


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[Welshman]

You call it a troubling FB page. To others, it's just Raffaele clowning around. Of course, you can't cite a single time in Raffaele's life where he exhibited violence, so you have to try to build up a perfectly innocent picture into something it isn't.

You know damn well this is a lie. Volturno went to the school to investigate and reported there was no evidence Raffaele attacked a schoolmate with scissors. That you're still repeating this lie speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Amanda, along with other roommates, pulled a prank on one of them. This is not bullying, it's a prank intended to make people laugh.

It was a party with loud music. How does your twisted mind conclude this is anti-social?

ONE story, not "stories", and it was NOT about girls being raped and murdered. Rape is mentioned once as something that had already happened. The story is about a younger brother holding his older brother accountable for having raped a girl. It's a story of right and wrong, not rape. No murder had happened, nor is murder ever mentioned, so why lie about this?

Now you're on to something. Mignini's mental gymnastics are likely similar to yours. You've formed a conclusion, and as a result, you twist and distort everything in a desperate effort to turn innocuous events into an indication that someone would be inclined to commit the crime.

Wrong. The prank was done to induce laughter. And, in fact, when Amanda and the others realized the roommate had been more distressed by the prank than they intended, they apologized. This act alone proves genuinely distressing the roommate was not what they wanted to achieve.

Amanda's phone was turned off after she responded to Lumuma, just moments before Popovic showed up at Raffaele's apartment, and Amanda was there. There's no credible evidence they were ever at Grimana Piazza the night of the murder.

So Amanda freaked out when she saw the knives, possibly thinking one of these could have been used to murder Meredith. There is nothing wrong with this reaction. And to be honest, no one cares what you believe... Amanda NEVER "confessed to Mignini".

Well, perhaps that's because she WAS a murder suspect.

And once again, you ignore what has been repeatedly pointed out - the comic book was still sealed in it's plastic bag, so no, it is NOT salient.

So now it's improper to tell the police what you saw?

Yes, we know this. This indicates a problem with Mignini, as we know this is an obsession of his, but thanks for proving the point.

None of this abnegates the fact there WAS a sadistic cruel murder, at Halloween/All Souls bank holiday, wherein the perps went back afterwards to clean up, pose the body and create a mise-en-scène in an elaborate act of deception, complete with broken window, strewn about clothing and the body undressed and set in an obscene position to make it look like a rape. You might call this clowning about and a prank, and I dare say, whilst the pair were high on drugs it seemed like a great laugh. The pages of the last couple of weeks torn out of her diary to hide the planning and fantasies of this sick pair. Mez was bullied, tortured by her tormentors: more than thirteen additional knife point jabs and bruising around the neck indicating strangulation and an extremely painful breaking of her hyoid bone. This was cruel calculated sadism not a chance burglary. Phones switched off for the duration. Committed by persons with a thrill-seeking need for domination and lesson teaching.




.

It is a sign of the gross stupidity of guilters that they are still claiming Amanda and Raffaele needed to stage a rape when Rudy had a actually raped Meredith.

 

[Numbers]

....

Despite all that, I'm not the type of person who would kill their roommate for kicks. So I can only conclude your criminal profiling skills are lacking. That is to say, nonexistent. Your "painted picture" is indistinguishable from taunting the nerds like a middle school bully. If Mignini indeed did the same kind of "profiling" as you claim, he's a fraud, and if he based his handling of the case on it he's a monster.

I found your use of the word "fraud" to describe Mignini interesting. A relevant dictionary definition of "fraud" as applied to a person means either the person is an imposter or is one engaged in defrauding or cheating. In terms of his job title, Mignini was indeed a prosecutor, so he is not a "fraud" in that sense. However, his claim to be a crack detective on the level of the fictional Sherlock Holmes is absurd - perhaps delusional - so in that sense he may be considered a fraud.

However, perhaps his violations of procedural laws in attempts to fabricate evidence and obtain a wrongful conviction by coercion and other possibly criminal or unlawful acts - such as alleged abuse of power, disregarding credible complaints of the use of violence and threats to obtain false statements, filing false official documents, and calunnia, all acts of cheating, would suggest that the meaning here would be "one engaged in cheating".

 

[SpitfireIX]

This case really has nothing to do with the Witch Trials of the 17th Century.

Yes, it does, for reasons that have been explained to you, and you ignore, as usual.

<snip of irrelevant description of Finnish witch trial>

But this has absolutely nothing in common with a person being made a suspect of murder in the Perugia case.

Again, yes, it does. See, for example, TC's post #3988 above.

Yes, Italy's old towns are a hotbed of masonry and whispers of mafia influence.

Explain to us again how you're not a conspiracy theorist.

Mignini was right to see a connection to Halloween. given Sollecito's anime manga comic depicting the vampire slaying of an ancient vampire. The cartoon depicting the slain vampire lying in the same position as Mez surrounded by three slayers.

Granting, arguendo, that Meredith was in fact lying in the same position as the vampire, I second Myriad's request that you explain how Raffaele and Amanda knew the vampire's position when the comic was unopened in the shrink wrap.

This sounds outrageous to you and this is why coldblooded evil killers get away with it because people refuse to believe they could be capable of it.

Could you give some examples of killers who "got away with it" because people didn't believe they were capable of killing?

It this had happened in America, AK would be in the same high security block as Jody Arias and Sollecito, with the BKT killer.

But you claim they only "got away with it" because Trump and/or the Mafia bribed or otherwise influenced the Italian appeals court and the Court of Cassation. Why couldn't that have happened in America?

 

[Myriad]

It tells you what was at the forefront of their minds. Why would RS be remembering her jeans (which were later pullled off)? Why would the remants of makeup be the salient thing the pair recalled?

The question that would be in the forefront of my mind, upon seeing a body that I was told was, or that might be, someone I knew, would be exactly this: is this really the person I (or the police) think it might be? Indeed, I would expect that most people, maybe with the exception of psychopaths, would have that question in the forefront of their minds under those circumstances. Especially if asked to identify the person, but even if not. With that question at the forefront of my mind, such details as the deceased wearing a particular piece of clothing that I've seen them wear before, or having makeup on their face from a recent party that I remember, would be very noticeable and memorable details. I can't imagine anyone, apart from the aforementioned exceptions, disagreeing with this.

The crime was a senseless futile crime . It is a crime that DID happen. It is not a figment of Mignini's imagination. Do you really believe the stupid claim 'the comic strip was unread so he can't have done it'?

We know RS read manga; so what? (Go Nagai is one of the OGs of the genre.) You're trying to use the composition of a particular page of a particular comic in RS's possession as evidence that someone involved in the murder acted to mimic that composition at the crime scene. Yet you can't show that anyone you're accusing had seen that page of that edition of that comic. No valid argument found.

The reason RS can't have done it because Guede did it and RS was elsewhere, as all the evidence of the case (not the "judicial" fictions, the actual evidence), the court's final findings, and documented history from the perspective of nearly two decades later all confirm.

You are in denial.

Yes. I deny your vicious guiltier fantasies. So did the Italian courts and so does history, as I've been saying.

Blaming the prosecutor when beyond a shadow of a doubt the pair were at the murder scene, did clean up, did create a theatrical scenario, did use horrible sadism in their act...

The problem you face here is that I don't believe you when you claim these things. Nor should anyone.

The idea of a witch hunt is equally ridiculous, when the main suspect was primarily Sollecito, a member of their own wealthy middle class Roman Catholic Italians, not dissimilar to the lawyers and judges, and not the unwashed scruff from America's vast working class suburbs, who simply couldn't resist bragging.

The analogy of a witch hunter applies perfectly to Mignini who cut corners, faked evidence, carried out an incompetent investigation, and made a public spectacle of it, to accuse and prosecute people who turned out to be innocent, because (as you admit) he thought he was fighting demons and vampires. We use "witch hunt" metaphorically to describe things like McCarthy's infamous investigation of communists in the U.S., but Mignini perfectly fits the original literal definition of a witch hunter. The moron thought AK and RS were witches.

 

[Welshman]

You call it a troubling FB page. To others, it's just Raffaele clowning around. Of course, you can't cite a single time in Raffaele's life where he exhibited violence, so you have to try to build up a perfectly innocent picture into something it isn't.

You know damn well this is a lie. Volturno went to the school to investigate and reported there was no evidence Raffaele attacked a schoolmate with scissors. That you're still repeating this lie speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Amanda, along with other roommates, pulled a prank on one of them. This is not bullying, it's a prank intended to make people laugh.

It was a party with loud music. How does your twisted mind conclude this is anti-social?

ONE story, not "stories", and it was NOT about girls being raped and murdered. Rape is mentioned once as something that had already happened. The story is about a younger brother holding his older brother accountable for having raped a girl. It's a story of right and wrong, not rape. No murder had happened, nor is murder ever mentioned, so why lie about this?

Now you're on to something. Mignini's mental gymnastics are likely similar to yours. You've formed a conclusion, and as a result, you twist and distort everything in a desperate effort to turn innocuous events into an indication that someone would be inclined to commit the crime.

Wrong. The prank was done to induce laughter. And, in fact, when Amanda and the others realized the roommate had been more distressed by the prank than they intended, they apologized. This act alone proves genuinely distressing the roommate was not what they wanted to achieve.

Amanda's phone was turned off after she responded to Lumuma, just moments before Popovic showed up at Raffaele's apartment, and Amanda was there. There's no credible evidence they were ever at Grimana Piazza the night of the murder.

So Amanda freaked out when she saw the knives, possibly thinking one of these could have been used to murder Meredith. There is nothing wrong with this reaction. And to be honest, no one cares what you believe... Amanda NEVER "confessed to Mignini".

Well, perhaps that's because she WAS a murder suspect.

And once again, you ignore what has been repeatedly pointed out - the comic book was still sealed in it's plastic bag, so no, it is NOT salient.

So now it's improper to tell the police what you saw?

Yes, we know this. This indicates a problem with Mignini, as we know this is an obsession of his, but thanks for proving the point.

This post highlights the numerous falsehoods Vixen has told in her post. If Amanda and Raffaele were so depraved and evil that they would commit a brutal murder, why is it necessary to resort to lying to support this argument? If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk, why is it necessary to resort to arguments such Raffaele being influenced by a manga comic in an unopened wrapper? Why repeat the same lies over and over again? Why has vixen constantly refused to answer why is it necessary to resort to lying if the case against Amanda and Raffaele was so solid?

 

[Myriad]

I found your use of the word "fraud" to describe Mignini interesting. A relevant dictionary definition of "fraud" as applied to a person means either the person is an imposter or is one engaged in defrauding or cheating. In terms of his job title, Mignini was indeed a prosecutor, so he is not a "fraud" in that sense. However, his claim to be a crack detective on the level of the fictional Sherlock Holmes is absurd - perhaps delusional - so in that sense he may be considered a fraud.

However, perhaps his violations of procedural laws in attempts to fabricate evidence and obtain a wrongful conviction by coercion and other possibly criminal or unlawful acts - such as alleged abuse of power, disregarding credible complaints of the use of violence and threats to obtain false statements, filing false official documents, and calunnia, all acts of cheating, would suggest that the meaning here would be "one engaged in cheating".

Profiling is mostly mythology to begin with. The expert "profiler," usually FBI, who shows up at the police station, looks through the reports, and intuits, based on the angle of the stab wounds and the phase of the moon and the use of the phrase "strange lotions" in the taunting note sent to the newspaper, that the serial killer must be 29 years old, single, used to play a trumpet in a high school orchestra, and collects vintage Happy Meal toys—and turns out to be exactly right in every detail—is as much a figment of TV show runners' imaginations as DNA test results that come back in ten minutes. Most real profiling is based on statistics, for instance most bank robbers or kidnappers are within a certain age range.

And more important, profiling only works to the limited extent it does, if you have the facts and the statistical relationships correct. Someone who interprets a single noise complaint as "antisocial" or a Halloween costume photo as indicating "transgressive personality" isn't profiling, they're making up excuses. That's the potential fraud, the pretense of profiling without actually doing anything resembling that. (Note that I conditioned all that on whether Mignini himself ever claimed to actually be profiling in the manner Vixen claims he did.) Like claiming a car can self-drive on public streets when it actually can't.

I'm not sure whether either of those example is actual fraud in any legal or dictionary sense. As I've been telling Vixen, most of the discussion in this thread (your own contributions excepted) is now about history. With the exception of a few remaining issues related to the ECHR that no one would care the slightest bit about if it weren't for the murder case, "current events" have gone by the board. Narratives of history don't run on nuanced details, but on broad sweeps. Did Nero fiddle while Rome burned? Almost certainly not. Who cares? The same way Nencini didn't care about the actual evidence or truth about AK and RS, history won't care exactly why he's the villain.

 

[Stacyhs]

This case really has nothing to do with the Witch Trials of the 17th Century.. We had Witch Trials in the Ålands, when six women were executed for supposedly taking part in a Witch's Sabbath. The prosecutor here was the new governor, Nils Psilander, some guy who had studied witchcraft demonology in Dorpat. But apart from that, almost all of Finland's practitioners of the dark arts were men, i,e., wizards. But usually the practice of 'witch hunting' was to do with trying to enforce Christianity onto persons or communities perceived to be resistant to the legal requirement to conform. Thus some 22 Laplander men were executed because they refused - understandably - to give up their cultural tradition of yoiking (made illegal) and shamanism.

The above has zero to do with Myriad's post which you completely mischaracterized.

But this has absolutely nothing in common with a person being made a suspect of murder in the Perugia case.

Yet you bring it up anyway.

Yes, Italy's old towns are a hotbed of masonry and whispers of mafia influence.

This knowledge comes from your years of living in Italy's old towns and overhearing Italians whispering about it?
All these mafia and masonic "whispers" aren't coming so much from Italy as from you and TJMK.

Mignini was right to see a connection to Halloween.

If Mignini claimed Knox drank Meredith's blood and sacrificed a goat to Satan, you'd back him up.

given Sollecito's anime manga comic depicting the vampire slaying of an ancient vampire. The cartoon depicting the slain vampire lying in the same position as Mez surrounded by three slayers.

You mean the scene in one of the comics in the UNOPENED 1960's manga collector's set given to him as a gift by his friend, Gianluigi Ceraso?

I've seen worse on TV in the recent Interview with the Vampire series.

This sounds outrageous to you and this is why coldblooded evil killers get away with it because people refuse to believe they could be capable of it. It this had happened in America, AK would be in the same high security block as Jody Arias and Sollecito, with the BKT killer.

I see this claim a lot by the PGP. Like most of your claims, it's not based on anything but your own need to believe it.