Terrain Theory vs Germ Theory

[sphenisc]

I personally long for the day my doctor advises me to lose some weight, exercise more, and cut back on the alcohol. Damn you Big Pharma!!

 

[dann]

One problem is that there were several diseases that were commonly caught by children.

There still are.

These kept them away from school and even killed off a few of them. Now vaccines have prevented most of these diseases.

They still do. Vaccines prevent most of the worst diseases, but it's called the common cold for a reason, and children as well as adults still get the flu and C19 because the vaccines against them don't give you sterilizing immunity, the immunity that it does give you wanes, and some people don¨t get the available vaccines.

The main problem is that the immune system has less to do and may cause trouble. So may we need to start giving it something to do.

You are promoting the idea of immunity debt, which became popular among fans of herd immunity by infection when the COVID-19 pandemic started. It is nonsense!
Debunking the myth of immunity debt (HealthyDebate, Jan 9, 2023)
‘Immunity debt’ is a misguided and dangerous concept (Financial Times, Nov 23, 2022)
People are exposed to pathogens all the time. We don't live in a bubble. The immune system doesn't need to be given something to do. It is doing it all the time.

In the case of C19, the idea of immunity debt is particularly absurd because, much like the measles, C19 weakens the immune system.
Did you ever hear about immune amnesia? It doesn't mean that the immune system forgets how to fight off diseases because it hasn't "been given something to do."

Measles Infection Can Cause Immune Amnesia (UCLA Health, April 4, 2025)
This is a phenomenon in which portions of the immune system’s memory are wiped clean. It occurs because the measles virus can invade not only the cells of the respiratory system, but also the cells of the immune system. This includes the memory B cells, which are specialized white blood cells whose job is to recognize pathogens that the body has encountered and fought off before. When alerted by the memory B cells that they have come across a known pathogen, the immune system can swiftly mobilize the specific antibodies it needs to target and overcome the invader.
Without that early warning system in place, the immune system is perpetually flying blind. This leaves the person susceptible to contracting secondary infections from other pathogens, including those that they have successfully fought off before. Researchers have found that, after recovering from the measles, the immune system is suppressed for at least several months, and for up to two years.

SARS-CoV-2 infection weakens immune-cell response to vaccination (NIH, Mar 20, 2023) Read it before Jay Bhattacharya deletes it!

Study: COVID can trigger changes to the immune system that may underlie persistent symptoms (CIDRAP, July 18, 2024)
Cytokines and growth factors in the blood were characteristic of remnants of acute inflammation at 10 weeks post-infection, and a comparison with the patient samples collected 10 months after showed a significant reduction in immune cells, a drop in SARS-CoV-2 antibodies, and a change in growth-factor patterns.
Rather than activation and expansion of certain effector memory cells, transitional B cells, and immature B cells called plasmablasts, the researchers found a significant reduction of adaptive immune cells, including T cells and B cells, at 10 months.
COVID-19 survivors also had significantly upregulated serum interleukin-4 (IL-4) levels and moderately upregulated IL-5 concentrations. Interferon-gamma levels, which were similar to those in the literature for controls and COVID-19 survivors at 10 weeks, had significantly declined by 10 months.
S- and RBD-specific immunoglobulin G antibodies were undetectable in nearly 18% and in more than 80% of the COVID-19 cohort, respectively, by 10 weeks and 10 months. "Moreover, more than 90% of patients lacked neutralizing antibody activity at 10 [months], implying that a large proportion of study subjects after their first infection lost protection from reinfection," the researchers wrote.

Infections can not only weaken your immune system, they can also trigger it into attacking things that you don't want it to attack, i.e. autoimmunity!

New Research Suggests Increased Risk of Some Autoimmune Disorders After COVID-19 (JAMA, Dec 13, 2024)
New research suggests SARS-CoV-2 infection may increase the long-term risk of autoimmune or autoinflammatory connective tissue disorders.
People who contracted COVID-19 were more likely to develop conditions such as alopecia, vitiligo, Crohn disease, ulcerative colitis, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus erythematosus, among others. These disorders were more prevalent in unvaccinated individuals, those with severe COVID-19, and people infected with the Delta variant, the study found.

A friend of mine got Guillain-Barré syndrome more than six months ago. She still hasn't recovered.

Risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome 6 times higher after COVID infection, study suggests (CIDRAP, Oct 18, 2023)
A new study from Israel ties COVID-19 infection to an increased risk of a diagnosis of Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS) within 6 weeks, while mRNA vaccination was linked to a decreased risk of the rare but serious autoimmune disease.

It is no coincidence that one of the favourite slogans of Big Supplements is that their products and therapies "strengthen the immune system."
They don't! And sometimes, as in the case of vitamin A, they make everything worse!
Some measles patients in West Texas show signs of vitamin A toxicity, doctors say, raising concerns about misinformation (CNN, Mar 26, 2025)

We don't need to start giving the immune system something to do.
We need to start giving it a rest!
Get vaccinated, mask up, ventilate and filtrate the air in indoor public places.

 

[Puppycow]

That is precisely what vaccines do: give your immune system a workout but in a safe space.

Yeah, if you think about it, vaccines are the one thing that really do "boost your immune system". Although, "boost" might not be the best word. More like, they give it advanced intel so that it can recognize a particular pathogen before it encounters it in the wild, and can stockpile the weapons it needs to fight that pathogen ahead of time, instead of making them from scratch after the pathogen gets a head start.

 

[dann]

That is one solution. Every so often give yourself a vaccine. It does not matter if you do not need the vaccine. I wonder what impact that will have on people who have auto immune disorders? Because those are the people who would need to do this. However my Googling does not reveal any research on this. There are even reports that vaccines could, in isolated cases, cause an auto immune disorder. Ref: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26728772/

Get someone to give you a vaccine when you actually need one.
Don't get vaccinated for fun or because you imagine that your immune system needs training! It's a false analogy.
Your Immune System is Not a Muscle (Rachel Thomas, Aug 13, 2024)

Since the 1990s, a small group of researchers have been promoting the idea of a Non-specific effect of vaccines (Wikipedia).
A disproportionate number of those doctors are Danes, unfortunately, e.g. Peter Aaby and his wife Christine Stabell Benn (on X). Their hypothesis was that "two live attenuated vaccines, BCG vaccine and measles vaccine" (Wiki) had other positive effects than just fighting off the infections that they were meant to protect against, a kind of positive side effect.

However, Aaby and Benn now have their backs against the wall because they appear to have been cherry picking their data to make it seem as if the data supported their conclusions.
Lukket grundforskning (Weekendavisen.dk, April 3, 2025)
En udødelig hypotese (Weekendavisen.dk, Mar 5, 2025)
And what is worse, in order to support their own hypothesis they campaigned against the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccine (DTaP)! Yes, they were active anti-vaxxers!
RFK Jr. refers to Peter Aaby and Christine Stabell Benn when he claims that the DTaP vaccines are dangerous!
Friske vaccinetal (Weekendavisen.dk, Mar 14, 2025)
Et dårligt immunforsvar (Weekendavisen.dk, Feb 20, 2025)

And their anti-vaxxer sentiments don't stop there. Christine Stabell Benn (along with Danish-American Tracy Beth Høeg) even became an adviser to Ron DeSantis and Ladapo.
Den rigtige vaccine (Weekendavisen.dk, Mar 23, 2025)

By the way, the Wikipedia article about the alleged non-specific effects of vaccines needs to be revised!


ETA: As for, "There are even reports that vaccines could, in isolated cases, cause an auto immune disorder. Ref: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26728772/"

My favourite example is Pasteur's first rabies vaccine:

Paul A. Offit: Vaccinated (HarperCollins)
As his vaccine was injected into more and more people, Pasteur found something that he hadn't anticipated: some people - as many as one of every two hundred who used it - became parolees and died. At first, Pasteur thought that people were dying of rabies. But they were dying of a reaction to he's vaccine.
(...)
Some people inoculated with myelin basic protein occasionally have an immune response against their own nervous systems: autoimmunity.

That was still pretty good odds for a vaccine against a disease that is 100% fatal when you consider that it is one of the few vaccines that works after you have been infected. Used for a mass vaccination campaign, it would obviously be unacceptable.
And fortunately, odds got considerably better once Pasteur stopped using the dried spinal cords of infected rabbits to make his vaccine.

I can recommend Offits book, it's great! And an easy read.

 

[Puppycow]

I posted this video in another thread, but RFK Jr. is a proponent of this "terrain theory" and he writes about it in his book about Dr. Fauci.
He's also a big opponent of a vaccine for rotavirus which is recommended for infants:

Rotavirus Vaccination

Learn about rotavirus vaccine basics, who should get it, when to get it, and why it's important.

www.cdc.gov

(Thank goodness this page still exists.)

 

[dann]

Correction of this quotation from post 24, which I have from a book and thus didn't copy paste but typed.

Paul A. Offit: Vaccinated (HarperCollins)
As his vaccine was injected into more and more people, Pasteur found something that he hadn't anticipated: some people - as many as one of every two hundred who used it - became parolees--> paralyzed and died. At first, Pasteur thought that people were dying of rabies. But they were dying of a reaction to he's vaccine.
(...)
Some people inoculated with myelin basic protein occasionally have an immune response against their own nervous systems: autoimmunity.

 

[Axxman300]

Yeah, if you think about it, vaccines are the one thing that really do "boost your immune system". Although, "boost" might not be the best word. More like, they give it advanced intel so that it can recognize a particular pathogen before it encounters it in the wild, and can stockpile the weapons it needs to fight that pathogen ahead of time, instead of making them from scratch after the pathogen gets a head start.

Imagine what North America would look like if Native Americans had a smallpox vaccine. What would Europe look like had there been a vaccine for the plague?

Space heaters, candles, and balloons kill more people every year than vaccines, but no one is suggesting we get rid of them.

 

[dann]

By the way, the Wikipedia article about the alleged non-specific effects of vaccines needs to be revised!

I should have read all the way to the bottom of the Wikipedia article about the alleged non-specific effect of vaccines where it says:

Non-specific effect of vaccines: Controversy
In 2013, WHO established a working group tasked with reviewing the evidence for the non-specific effects of BCG, measles and DTP vaccines. Two independent reviews were conducted, an immunological review and an epidemiological review. The results were presented at the April 2014 meeting of WHO's Strategic Group of Experts on Immunization (SAGE). WHO/SAGE "concluded that the findings from the immunological systematic review neither exclude nor confirm the possibility of beneficial or deleterious non-specific immunological effects of the vaccines under study on all-cause mortality. The published literature does not provide confidence in the quality, quantity, or kinetics of impact of any non-specific immunological effects in young children after vaccination. [...] SAGE considered that the non-specific effects on all-cause mortality warrant further research. [...] SAGE considered that additional observational studies with substantial risk of bias would be unlikely to contribute to policy decision making and therefore should not be encouraged."

 

[dann]

Another one from Jonathan Howard:

Dr. Vinay Prasad is Now the Medical Establishment. It’s His Job to Run RCTs, and It’s Our Job to Call Him a Lying Piece of $#!& if He Fails. (Science-Based Medicine, May 9, 2025)
From claiming COVID vaccines were perfect and would end the pandemic to treating rare, temporary vaccine side-effects, even abnormal lab values, as a fate worse than death, Dr. Vinay Prasad spread copious COVID misinformation. It’s taken volumes to begin to categorize his attempts to repeatedly infect unvaccinated children with SARS-CoV-2.
As SBM readers know, one of the chief ways Dr. Prasad spread doubt and mistrust was via methodolatry. Except for vaccine side-effects, Dr. Prasad claimed that only randomized-control trials (RCTs) could inform medical decisions and that unwanted mitigation measures were useless unless they proved themselves via an RCT for every variant and demographic subgroup.

Some good news, I hope:

Scoop: "Randomized controlled trials are not always necessary," new FDA vaccine chief Dr. Vinay Prasad says to staff. (Inside Medicine on Substack, May 8, 2005)
Introductory comments yesterday reflected a return to nuance from a figure who had become contentious in recent years.

 

[ahhell]

False Dichotomy.

When the symbiosis we have with microorganisms in our guts and on our skin isn't enough to prevent the spreading to a pathogenic vector, only then will we try to kill the pathogen with therapies, or, more often, assist the body to do so itself.
Current Germ Theory already includes everything positive Terrain Theory might have to offer - if we had antibiotics that only target the pathogen, we would use those: we don't nuke our microbiome just for the fun of it.

Yes, this. If you are otherwise unhealthy, it makes sense that exposure to additional diseases is more dangerous. That doesn't mean that the other diseases aren't otherwise dangerous though.

You could reasonably argue that both AIDS and the 1917 flu prove terrain theory and the germ theory. Infection by either resulted in lots of death from things people would otherwise be able to resist. Does not prove in any way that protecting someone from AIDS or the Flu is a bad thing.

 

[ahhell]

I posted this video in another thread, but RFK Jr. is a proponent of this "terrain theory" and he writes about it in his book about Dr. Fauci.
He's also a big opponent of a vaccine for rotavirus which is recommended for infants:

Rotavirus Vaccination

Learn about rotavirus vaccine basics, who should get it, when to get it, and why it's important.

www.cdc.gov

(Thank goodness this page still exists.)

Confused by this. From listening to that podcast, I understood that RFK was an opponent of the Rotovirus vaccine not a proponent?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Confused by this. From listening to that podcast, I understood that RFK was an opponent of the Rotovirus vaccine not a proponent?

That is what Puppycow said.

 

[ahhell]

That is what Puppycow said.

Ah, reading comprehension issue on my part.

 

[dann]

You could reasonably argue that both AIDS and the 1917 flu prove terrain theory and the germ theory. Infection by either resulted in lots of death from things people would otherwise be able to resist. Does not prove in any way that protecting someone from AIDS or the Flu is a bad thing.

No, you couldn't reasonably argue that, and that is not what they claim. People like Aaby and Benn (see post 24) actually claim that only "live attenuated vaccines" have the alleged non-specific effects, and they have been trying to prove that other vaccines are harmful and thus are "a bad thing."
The measles vaccine protects people from the immune amnesia (see post 22) caused by the measles because it protects people from getting the measles specifically, so the effect is by no means unspecific. And the fans of a non-specific vaccine effect claim that it is due to something beyond protecting people from the disease that it immunizes against.

And as mentioned above (see also post 28), this idea appears to be based on science fraud.

 

[Axxman300]

Funny how there are few vaccines for STDs considering the potential market for them. Flies in the face of the anti-Big Pharma/anti-science crowd. STDs also illustrate how germ theory and terrain theory are linked in that you can't get them by walking down the street. And I don't see too many people complain about Big Pharma when it comes to treating STDs.

 

[dann]

There are some vaccines against STDs, and attempts to develop more are under way:
Vaccines That Can Prevent STIs (ASHA Sexual Health)

News: Studies indicate meningococcal vaccines could offer protection against gonorrhea (CIDRAP, May 8, 2025)
(But the protection is far from 100%.)

Antibiotics used to be very effective treatments for both gonorrhea and syphilis, which may have made it less urgent to develop vaccines against them. And there are other very effective, non-pharmaceutical, ways to avoid getting the two 'classical' STDs in the first place.

You seem to forget about the anti-HPV-vaccine campaign:
Debunking Myths about the Human-Papilloma Virus (HPV) Vaccine (Pan-American Health Organization)
That one was big in Denmark!
Denmark campaign rebuilds confidence in HPV vaccination (WHO, Feb 27, 2018)

 

[dann]

The rise of a new form of germ theory denial (Your Local Epidemiologist on Substack, May 8, 2025)
Germ theory does not say all germs are bad, nor does it say germs are responsible for every disease known to humans, nor does it say that any exposure to a germ is a guarantee of illness. It says that certain germs can cause infections that make people sick. And when that happens, the germ really is to blame.

A new subtle form of germ theory denial
But this idea is starting to be rejected and replaced with a new, inaccurate view of why infections happen and what we should do about them.
This new version of germ theory denial still acknowledges that germs are real, but says they’re not all that much of a threat for a healthy individual, and not the real problem causing disease. Instead, when someone catches an infection, the person’s immune system and lifestyle are blamed—an unhealthy diet, lack of exercise, exposure to “environmental toxins,” or underlying conditions are allegedly the “true” cause of disease because they damaged the immune system.
Said another way, it’s the belief that infections don’t pose a risk to healthy people who have optimized their immune system. And if you want to prevent infections, vaccines aren’t the solution, becoming healthier through nutrition, exercise, and dietary supplements are.
This version of germ theory denialism has become quite common. It’s what drove the comorbidity fallacy during the pandemic—the belief that COVID wasn’t really what was killing people, that underlying health conditions were actually to blame. It also drove the rumor that if you just eat right and exercise enough, there’s no reason to get vaccinated, because your immune system will be sufficiently “boosted.” More recently, it can be seen in the rumor that vaccines didn’t really cause the decline in vaccine-preventable illnesses like measles and polio during the 20th century, rather, better nutrition and sanitation were the true drivers.

The article continues with "RFK Jr.'s view on germs."

 

[Hlafordlaes]

My immediate reaction to the OP was that taking care of my general health is what I normally do to stay fit and healthy, and that includes being less susceptible to infection because of general robustness. Had never heard of the theory until now. I do get sick far less often these last decades, but that is mainly because I've had a chance to build up immunities and resistances over a lifetime. Vaccines help, too.

"Terrain theory" seems to be a fancy term for the age-old obvious "apple a day" type advice. I'd need to hear something game-changing, some more than coincidental relation to normal health measures in order to lend some credence.

As far as aging is concerned, maintaining a healthy level of social interaction and a light exercise regime seem to be the winning longevity combo. Meanwhile, I avoid germs and wash my hands before eating and whenever I've been out. Done!

Wife has cooties, though, and can use them to control me at will, so there's that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

"Terrain theory" seems to be a fancy term for the age-old obvious "apple a day" type advice. I'd need to hear something game-changing, some more than coincidental relation to normal health measures in order to lend some credence.

I respectfully disagree with this portion of your comment. IMHO terrain theory puts too much of the responsibility on the individual, in the sense that it implies that if you get sick, it is your fault. Some people are born with subpar immune systems (the genetic condition SCID comes to mind), and others become immunocompromised from lymphoma or other diseases. It also ignores the fact that new pathogens appear and old ones evolve. However, I would agree that terrain theory can appear reasonable on the surface. Nor do I disagree with the proposition that good nutrition and exercise are important components of good health.

 

[ahhell]

Ya, terrain theory goes a bit beyond an apple a day. Most proponents seem to think if you just live a healthy life you'll never get sick and then go on to say that medicine is therefore bad. A leap of logic I can't quite follow. So, if I was healthy I wouldn't have gotten sick so I shouldn't take the medicine that will cure me? The anti-vax thing is.... well I have no idea how that follows from terrain theory. Which seems to be why folks like RFK go beyond just terrain theory and start claiming vaccines are actually bad for you.

(ETA: I mean, if terrain theory were true, how would a vaccine even cause harm?)

I'm just thinking out load but, I just don't get it. If terrain theory was true, vaccines could still work. Ok, so a flu can't kill me if I'm healthy to begin with and also vaccines could improve my terrain and helping me fight off the virus just like healthiness can.

Then there's the thing where they seem to blame modernity for our unhealthy terrain, what were all those folks dying of before modernity?

There is a soft version of terrain theory that is basically true, which is an apple a day keeps the doctor away. That is if you are otherwise healthy, you are generally better able to fight of the germs that cause disease. RFK and his fellow travelers never stop there though. Its almost as though they first decide that modern medicine is bad and then use terrain theory as justification.