Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Not at all as that is exactly what I've seen more than one PGP claim. In fact, one "KrissyG" implied as much on TJMK:
Here's another PGP claiming Knox knew she was dead:
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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32
- Thread starter LondonJohn
- Start date
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Then you'll be giving us your explanation for the questions I asked since it's no mystery:
1. If they didn't realize that "there is too much bacteria in faeces for it to be particularly useful for DNA recovery" then what was the point of bringing the police's attention to it?
2. What about the sample found in FR's room that was ONLY Meredith's DNA? How did that get there?
Not that I really expect answers as you never answer questions you don't have a rational answer for. Just like you've ever explained the FIVE PHONE CALLS the postales somehow managed to miss or who the "seasoned detective" was who determined Kercher was "lying on a sheet and moved 18 inches" or any evidence "the defense seriously altered the climbing video". Those are only the ones off the top of my head.
Vixen, if you wish to show that the claims 1. that the C-V report was "expunged" by the Chieffi CSC panel and 2. that the Marasca CSC panel did not have the legal power to use the C-V report evidence from the Hellmann Court proceedings in the reasoning (MR) of its judgment contained in your post are not nonsense, please provide citations from reputable Italian legal sources to verify those claims.
Note that criticism of the C-V report findings by the Chieffi CSC panel MR does not eliminate or "expunge" the C-V report and its findings as evidence. The criticism may be understood instead as comments on scientific forensic technology and results by a court that failed to understand the subject matter it was reviewing and failed to seek help from independent subject matter experts who would have provided explanations.
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Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
The time is only recorded from when the call is answered be it a person or message. Which is why Knox said it rang and rang.
Because she didn't want to leave a message, she wanted to talk to Kercher. She'd already called the English phone with no answer. Then the Italian phone goes to voicemail. So, she immediately calls the Eng. phone again which says 'out of service'.
And there it is! Thanks for proving my earlier post!
I've already given a timeline for when they turned off their phones which was both logical and rational reaction to just having learned she didn't have to go to work and Raffaele didn't have to go out later that night. You've never responded. It's no mystery why.
Yeah, his 'wayward' son who was finishing up his degree in computer science and whose hair tests were negative for narcotics. LOL!
Hmmm... no court said the murder was planned at all.
If they were "perfectly aware of phone tracking" then why not just leave their phones at RS's apartment?
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
I know you're not. We'll come back to that.
I know why she was, and it's been explained to you. You're just parroting the guilter lie that it was because she attempted to interfere in the investigation, and you even linked to a source that you falsely claimed proved that.
I am quite aware of that. But you quoted him, claiming that he could offer "insight" into the case. So, if you were intellectually honest, you would understand that you need to be able either to defend his claims, or else acknowledge that he's not as insightful as you imagine he is.
Further, one of the cornerstones of your argument that Amanda is still factually guilty of murder despite her acquittal is your claim of Mafia influence on the Court of Cassation. In order for that to make any sense, you have to be able to explain why the Mafia would care enough to do this. The standard guilter excuse is that Raffaele is connected to the Mafia because he has the same last name as a moderately prominent (now-deceased) Italian-Canadian mafioso who happens to have been born in the same town, and guilters have manufactured some bogus evidence, such as the "church door" photo.
Conversely, I claim that there is no [ETA: credible] evidence that Raffaele or his family were ever connected with the Mafia, and I claim that the fact that his sister was accepted as lieutenant in the Carabinieri is proof that they were not.
See above.
@Myriad read your post the same way I did, and I'll bet other posters did, too. So that's on you.
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Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Please stop with the trite responses. They're obviously nothing more than evasion.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
WHERE?
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Even according to the prosecution, Kercher was dead by 11:30. So why leave their phones off until the next morning and afternoon? Let me guess: they were busy staging a burglary, rearranging the body, and washing down the crime scene with bleach.
And there it is again! Whether she called Kercher or not is NOT 'establishing an alibi'. The alibi needed was for the previous night, not the next afternoon.
"Probably" is nothing more than speculation.
LOL!! Oh, brother.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Damn. Irony meters are exploding around the world at that one.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Massei did not have the Conti and Vecchiotti report.
Nencini was annulled for very good reason.
You didn't realize we're dealing in historical narratives here, while at the same time madly spinning your own? This thread is no different than arguing about whether the taste or the marketing is what caused New Coke to fail, or how many more passengers the lifeboats on the Titanic could have saved if filled to capacity, or how Napoleon might have won Waterloo. It's about what narratives we're going to tell about an event rapidly receding into the past. It can be interesting to discuss but except for the ongoing EHCR action regarding the calunnia case, it is utterly irrelevant.
The real world exists in the present. Unless you can show that events in Perugia over seventeen years ago are having some effect on present day issues or policy, most of what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the real world.
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Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Oh, my god. What a load of rubbish.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Give it a rest.
Clearly wrong. The fame Knox was complaining about had nothing to do with prison hierarchies. It was the unwanted notoriety generated by corrupt opportunistic prosecutors lying about her in the press to make themselves and their case look better.
Let's pretend you compared Amanda Knox to prostitutes to illustrate your admiration for her resilience and ability to overcome misfortune and hardship.
Nah, let's not. No one will believe it.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Oh, dear is right.
Myriad, thanks for your excellent post (quoted above).
Your statements about historical narratives are of great interest, since for every court case - whether one tried by an Italian court or one examined by the European Court of Human Rights - a judge, panel of judges, or jury (in the US, UK, etc.) strives to establish a historical narrative from alleged evidence using established procedural laws and principles of reasoning. The historical narrative properly established by logically and reasonably considering reliable lawfully obtained evidence from the prosecution and defense is then compared to the requirements (elements) of the relevant criminal laws and procedural laws to obtain a verdict in a criminal case. After some point defined by an established law, the verdict becomes final - res judicata is the legal term often used for this finality.
In Italy, a criminal judgment that cannot be appealed, or that has not been appealed by either the prosecutor or defense within the legally set time limits, becomes final (CPP Article 648). Final criminal convictions may, however, be revised (CPP Article 629), that is, given a new trial, if there is a request for revision that meets the requirements of CPP Article 630. Final criminal judgments of acquittal cannot be changed or retried - double jeopardy is not allowed (CPP Article 649). So the acquittal of Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape charges cannot be changed, and all the false statements of PGP (guilters) cannot change this.
In addition to the revision procedural law, the Italian Parliament has recently (2022-2023) enacted a new law, CPP Article 628 bis, that allows for a retrial of a case that has ended in a final conviction but where the ECHR has issued a final judgment that the trial producing that conviction was unfair (CPP Article 628 bis). Knox's first final conviction for calunnia has been one of the first cases to go through the procedures allowed by that law, and by the peculiar actions of the Italian courts, Knox has been re-tried and finally re-convicted of calunnia despite the final ECHR judgment, without any substantive remedy of the violations that cause the first trial and conviction to be judged to be violations of the Convention, particularly an unfair trial (Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3c and 6.1 with 6.3e). So the only uncertainties are how the Committee of Ministers and the ECHR (in case of a referral by the CoM or a new application by Knox to the ECHR) will act, and how Italy will undertake its remaining unfulfilled obligation to abide by the final judgment of the ECHR in Knox v. Italy. We can be confident that the CoM and the ECHR will not view the Italian courts' distortion of the meaning of the ECHR final judgment Knox v. Italy because ECHR case law requires that a respondent state abide by the conclusion and spirit of a final ECHR judgment.
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Whether it seems to you is irrelevant. The DNA from saliva, sweat, blood, skin is identical. Steffanoni testified to this. You cannot identify the source of the DNA from the DNA. That is a scientific fact. That is why there is a great deal of literature on testing for blood. That is why Staffanoni tested for blood. This is a false idea that has lodged in your brain. Blood is not particularly high in DNA, it is mostly red blood cells that contain no DNA, platelets that contain no DNA and serum (liquid) that contains no DNA. The DNA is contained in white cells which are only a small faction of blood.
Please provide a reference that says in a forensic situation DNA can be used to identify the source of the DNA.
FWIW I'll reference one of the world's top experts on the forensic use of DNA. You should read his expert opinion.
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I think it is worth remembering that even in the absence of DNA evidence there was sufficient evidence to convict Guede. His bloody handprint in the murder room, placed him in the room, and at the time of the murder. This is far stronger than the DNA evidence.
Just compare the strength of evidence against Guede. There were multiple findings of his DNA on Kercher's belongings and clothes in the murder room. Shoeprints compatible with missing shoes of Guede were found in the murder room. Guede fled Italy. One of Guede's friends reported him to the police saying he thought he was guilty (this was before the police had identified Guede as a suspect). In contrast no evidence of Knox was found in the room. Given a violent struggle if Knox or Sollecito was there you would expect an equivalent amount of evidence to that of Guede.
The only evidence of Sollecito was the bra clasp collected 6 weeks later that had benn moved and handled prior to collection.
There was no evidence of Knox in the murder room.
Just compare the strength of evidence against Guede. There were multiple findings of his DNA on Kercher's belongings and clothes in the murder room. Shoeprints compatible with missing shoes of Guede were found in the murder room. Guede fled Italy. One of Guede's friends reported him to the police saying he thought he was guilty (this was before the police had identified Guede as a suspect). In contrast no evidence of Knox was found in the room. Given a violent struggle if Knox or Sollecito was there you would expect an equivalent amount of evidence to that of Guede.
The only evidence of Sollecito was the bra clasp collected 6 weeks later that had benn moved and handled prior to collection.
There was no evidence of Knox in the murder room.
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Planigale, thanks for the excellent analysis in your post.
There are a few additional points that reinforce the evidence of the culpability of Guede: 1. Guede's DNA was found inside Kercher's vagina, 2. His DNA was found on her purse, 3. He admitted being in the cottage apartment with Kercher at the relevant time, 4. He claimed that he and Kercher had been involved in consensual sexual activities at the relevant time, but Kercher's friends were not aware of Guede and Kercher being in a relationship and there was no credible evidence of a relationship.
There are a few additional points strongly indicating that the bra clasp DNA alleged evidence was unreliable: 1. The DNA profile of the bra clasp showed DNA alleles from several males, besides those attributable to Sollecito, suggesting DNA contamination 2. At the time of collection, the bra clasp unit was held by one of its clasps by a glove with visible "dirt" (dark extraneous substance) on its finger(s); 3. The bra had been removed from Kercher's body by cutting and or tearing at a location on the bra away from the clasp unit, 4. Taking a bra off (or putting it on) does not in practice involve contact of the skin of the hand or fingers with the clasps, 5. Comparison of test numbers and test reports suggest a possible unreported test during the DNA testing of the bra clasp. 6. After the DNA testing, the bra clasps were improperly stored in an aqueous solution, resulting in likely disintegration of the DNA on the clasps and thus making any retest impossible, 7. The DNA test results of the bra clasp were only announced after Sollecito's father had demonstrated the patterns on Sollecito's shoes did not, contrary to police and prosecution claims, match the details of the patterns found in blood on the pillow in Kercher's room.