Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

But we aren't. And you seem to be getting upset at the people who don't like that we aren't doing that anymore, rather than the people who stopped us from doing that.

In the past, when women complained about the presence of men in their spaces, those men were ejected. Now, the women who complain are ejected. For you to call that difference "security theater" is exactly what I mean when I say that you don't care about the presence of predatory men in women's spaces. You keep proving me right.

The current trend of enforcement may be catty wompous, but that's a different issue. If a guy is doing something inappropriate, he should be ejected. Same if a woman is. If he's not, he's not. And his simple presence, if he is not trans, is enough to warrant thar ejection.

And yes, I know you have your rinse and repeat answer on hair trigger. "But how can you tell?" Rinse and repeat the same answers as the last 4786 times it was discussed and you changed the subject after being answered.

 

[Ziggurat]

The current trend of enforcement may be catty wompous, but that's a different issue.

No, it isn't a different issue. The current enforcement is a failure precisely because the TRA's have no answer to these basic questions.

If a guy is doing something inappropriate, he should be ejected.

What he's doing inappropriate is being somewhere he shouldn't be. And he's not getting ejected for that.

Same if a woman is. If he's not, he's not. And his simple presence, if he is not trans, is enough to warrant thar ejection.

Why does him being trans or not make any difference? This is not actually a trivial question. I suspect you have not thought about it in any depth.

And yes, I know you have your rinse and repeat answer on hair trigger. "But how can you tell?" Rinse and repeat the same answers as the last 4786 times it was discussed and you changed the subject after being answered.

I keep repeating because you have NOT actually provided any real answer. You have made reference to thinks that are impossible to determine, such as someone's inner state of mind, but we can't tell based on that. You have provided no actual answer to the question of how one tells.

 

[d4m10n]

Whatever you please, if it's loosely related.

Related to what, exactly? I thought we were talking about the intersection of trans identification with scientific consensus about what it means to see oneself as the opposite sex.

But if we are looking for data and research for non-mental disorder topics, I'm still feeling pretty confident that the DSM would not be the place to start

A profound desire to change one's body to appear opposite-sexed falls under the rubric of mental disorders, if only because some medical expert is needed to assess, diagnose, and prescribe treatment.

Disregard all of the above if you care to tell us what a "jaunt back into the real world of data and credible research" should look like, from your perspective. Possibly you had some other issues in mind.

 

[Thermal]

No, it isn't a different issue. The current enforcement is a failure precisely because the TRA's have no answer to these basic questions.

The TRAs don't have to have enforcement answers. It's not their job. Enforcement has to deal with whether they are being reasonable and whether they are enforcing anything that has teeth at all.

What he's doing inappropriate is being somewhere he shouldn't be. And he's not getting ejected for that.

"Shouldn't be". That's what we are talking about, whether he should or shouldn't be there. You are begging the question that he is already disallowed.

Why does him being trans or not make any difference? This is not actually a trivial question. I suspect you have not thought about it in any depth.

I have, and had you been paying attention to the first dozen or so direct addressings of the issue, you would know this.

ETA: I'll repeat this answer again to you: the women's room is for those who believe they are women. That's over 99.5% of the time a biological female. Every once in a while, it's a male who believes he is a woman. That's why it matters whether he is trans or not.

I keep repeating because you have NOT actually provided any real answer. You have made reference to thinks that are impossible to determine, such as someone's inner state of mind, but we can't tell based on that. You have provided no actual answer to the question of how one tells.

Short answer, 869th repetition: It doesn't matter. You don't have to "be able to tell". He is either ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ with you, or minding his own business. If you want to throw a fit over it on general principle, go whine to the Penis Police and have them eject him. Good luck with that. He'll probably have peed, hopefully washed his hands, and be long on his way before you return with the Penis Police, wherever they are stationed.

You do not like the direct answers you get, so you get quiet and bring them up again a few pages later from scratch as if they weren't addressed. Bored with it, man.

 

[Thermal]

Related to what, exactly?

You want to run with DSM for...whatever your reasons are. Go ahead. I'm seriously not into a multi-day 40 post exchange while you Socratically try to steer this somewhere to your liking. Just do it, man.

 

[Manger Douse]

Something that didn't seem to occur to Blanchard when concocting his AGP theory was that maybe he should kinda sorta consider if cishet women were also aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman? I mean, that would be kind of significant, no? Blanchard asserts flatly that women don't, but surprise surprise, provides no factual support at all for that. Dr Charles Moser decided to find out. Turns out 93% of cishet women are also sexually aroused at the thought of themselves as women when posed with similar questions that were posed to Blanchard's transwomen group, and 28% on multiple instances of multiple criteria. Similar to the rates of the transwoman subjects (considering the understandably small study group sizes).

From Moser's peer reviewed work:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918360903005212?src=recsys

Am I missing something here? How are we extrapolating a questionnaire filled out by less than 30 women in a single, American hospital to all women worldwide?

 

[theprestige]

Something that didn't seem to occur to Blanchard when concocting his AGP theory was that maybe he should kinda sorta consider if cishet women were also aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman? I mean, that would be kind of significant, no? Blanchard asserts flatly that women don't, but surprise surprise, provides no factual support at all for that. Dr Charles Moser decided to find out. Turns out 93% of cishet women are also sexually aroused at the thought of themselves as women when posed with similar questions that were posed to Blanchard's transwomen group, and 28% on multiple instances of multiple criteria. Similar to the rates of the transwoman subjects (considering the understandably small study group sizes).

From Moser's peer reviewed work:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918360903005212?src=recsys

I'm not sure women doing women things* is the argument you think it is.

The problem is still men thinking that doing women things entitles them to be honorary women.

What's natural and healthy for one sex is not necessarily natural and healthy for the other.

---

*I'm stipulating.

 

[Thermal]

Am I missing something here? How are we extrapolating a questionnaire filled out by less than 30 women in a single, American hospital to all women worldwide?

Blanchard didn't base his grand theory on a whole lot many more subjects, ducky.

And Moser's point is sound: How in the name of all that's holy could you miss such a basic control group to compare with?

 

[Thermal]

I'm not sure women doing women things* is the argument you think it is.

The problem is still men thinking that doing women things entitles them to be honorary women.

What's natural and healthy for one sex is not necessarily natural and healthy for the other.

---

*I'm stipulating.

As a criticism of the study though, it's sound. You can't just decide on your own what is normal in such an unresearched area, even under your take on women doing women things. How did Blanchard know if it was normal or not?

To your honorary woman point, i hear you, but I don't think the transwoman is 'doing women things'. I think she is doing her thing naturally, which jibes with what we think of as what other women would do. It's not a role play.

 

[theprestige]

Blanchard didn't base his grand theory on a whole lot many more subjects, ducky.

And Moser's point is sound: How in the name of all that's holy could you miss such a basic control group to compare with?

Women aren't a control group for men.

Also, healthy women don't fetishize their self attraction. They don't evolve their self attraction into a paraphilia. They don't develop predatory behavior towards other women to satisfy a paraphilic urge.

And you still haven't really explained why men should be in women's restrooms at all, regardless of their rationale.

 

[Thermal]

Women aren't a control group for men.

When talking about whether it is normal to become aroused thinking of yourself as a woman, they for damn sure should be. I mean, think of how powerfully we sexualize femininity and women. I'd be shocked if anyone didn't equate women and sexual arousal in 21st century America. Seen any advertisements for anything at all lately?

Also, healthy women don't fetishize their self attraction. They don't evolve their self attraction into a paraphilia. They don't develop predatory behavior towards other women to satisfy a paraphilic urge.

I don't recall the topic veering into the weeds of fetish behaviors.

And you still haven't really explained why men should be in women's restrooms at all, regardless of their rationale.

I'm not sure they should, but I am quite sure the arguments against it are much weaker than I thought.

 

[Manger Douse]

Blanchard didn't base his grand theory on a whole lot many more subjects, ducky.

And Moser's point is sound: How in the name of all that's holy could you miss such a basic control group to compare with?

We're not talking about Blanchard, , we're talking about how you can extrapolate the response of 30 women in the same building to all the women worldwide

 

[theprestige]

When talking about whether it is normal to become aroused thinking of yourself as a woman, they for damn sure should be. I mean, think of how powerfully we sexualize femininity and women. I'd be shocked if anyone didn't equate women and sexual arousal in 21st century America. Seen any advertisements for anything at all lately?

Healthy women aren't preying on each other because of how sexually excited they are about their vision of their own womanhood.

I don't recall the topic veering into the weeds of fetish behaviors.

The topic of this thread has been fetish behaviors all along.

I'm not sure they should, but I am quite sure the arguments against it are much weaker than I thought.

And yet still stronger than your argument for.

You're fumbling around, looking for a justification for something you're not even sure is justifiable.

 

[Ziggurat]

Let me save you some trouble, Thermal. You cannot tell a trans person from someone pretending to be trans.

The TRAs don't have to have enforcement answers. It's not their job.

Of course they don't have to have enforcement answers, because they explicitly do not want any enforcement.

You claim not to agree with the TRAs. But you sure seem to take their side a lot.

ETA: I'll repeat this answer again to you: the women's room is for those who believe they are women.

In practice, this means that it is also for men. Including predators. This standard is self ID, and under self ID, you cannot keep anyone out.

You keep proving me right.

 

[Thermal]

Meant to post this earlier: this was Blanchard's questionaire. I found it hard to not get somewhat aroused just reading it. Does that mean I am Frank from White Lotus, or are sexually loaded questions gonna make a lot of folks kinda hot?

Gender Dysphoria & Autogynephilia

Results of Blanchard (1989) "The Concept of Autogynephilia and the Typology of Male Gender Dysphoria"

www.genderpsychology.org

 

[Thermal]

We're not talking about Blanchard,

We rather pointedly are. So was Moser.

, we're talking about how you can extrapolate the response of 30 women in the same building to all the women worldwide

The same way Blanchard extrapolated his few dozen worldwide. Or are you saying Blanchard's head was also up his ass? He acknowledges that point at least, and admits his evidence sucks.

 

[Manger Douse]

We rather pointedly are. So was Moser.

The same way Blanchard extrapolated his few dozen worldwide. Or are you saying Blanchard's head was also up his ass? He acknowledges that point at least, and admits his evidence sucks.

The right-ness or wrong-ness of Blanchard's study is irrelevant to the right-ness or wrong-ness of Mosers. How are you extrapolating the views of 30 women in the same building to all women world-wide?

 

[Thermal]

The right-ness or wrong-ness of Blanchard's study is irrelevant to the right-ness or wrong-ness of Mosers. How are you extrapolating the views of 30 women in the same building to all women world-wide?

Has it occurred to you that might have been Moser's point as well? The Doc might have a sense of irony.

 

[Manger Douse]

Has it occurred to you that might have been Moser's point as well? The Doc might have a sense of irony.

It's a bad study then. Thanks for eventually getting there

 

[Thermal]

Let me save you some trouble, Thermal. You cannot tell a trans person from someone pretending to be trans.

Nor do I care. Nor should you.

In practice, this means that it is also for men. Including predators.

In reality, we have seen this problem is imaginary. The immigrants aren't really eating your pets, no matter how exciting you find the suggestion to be.