• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

"I don't care what all those structural engineers and authorities on fire prevention say, I can clearly see the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed in controlled demolitions, and all of you who accept the Official Government Story are just blind sheeple who can't think for yourselves!" :rolleyes:


No. From "Scientific Thinking About Legal Truth," by Gal Rosenzweig (Frontiers in Psychology, July 6, 2022):

The Legal Truth​

The legal fact-finding process is based on witness reports about sources of information, such as eyewitness testimonies and scientific measurements. Although the fact finders examine the validity of witness testimonies based on reports of various interviewing techniques, such as cognitive interviews, or based on scientific department reports, and the legal fact-finding model relies mainly on estimations and risk management. Fact finders hear witness testimonies, assess their validity based on their perceptions, and decide what has happened in reality. Although fact finders also consider the relationship between crime scene findings and the witnesses' reports, they examine only whether these correlate. They use the synthesis of evidence, logic, life experience, and the rules of evidence to determine whether to rely on the testimony. Finally, their decisions are guided by confidence in the coherence of the information.​
​
Court rulings show that making decisions based on these guiding principles may be problematic because (a) the correlations might be random, being based on statistics with low probability; (b) the justifications might contradict scientific research findings, as in the case of a credible eyewitness identification under problematic viewing conditions and a delayed lineup; (c) evidence synthesis might point to a certain conclusion even if a contradictory hypothesis cannot be discarded or if crucial information needed for validation, such as the possible error rate, is missing or not examined at all.​
​
Brain science research may reveal the reasons why deciding based on these principles can be problematic, showing that prior knowledge unconsciously biases perception and can lead to false confidence about reality even if the pieces of information are sparse or inaccurate. Thus, deciding based on the confidence level regarding evidence coherence might diverge from reality because it may be based on the witnesses' and fact finders' prior knowledge rather than on evidence. Several psychological research findings regarding cognitive biases can also explain why deciding based on subjective perception regarding what happened at a crime scene could lead to mistakes. First, fact finders may be affected by tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is the tendency of actors in the criminal justice system to use heuristics and shortcuts to filter evidence selectively and build a case for a suspect's conviction, ignoring or suppressing evidence that points to the suspect's innocence. Tunnel vision motivates investigators, prosecutors, and judges to attribute importance and relevance to information that supports their original conclusion, while information inconsistent with the presumption of guilt is easily overlooked, dismissed as irrelevant, or considered unreliable. Second, the fact finders' decisions may also rely on several aspects of false judgments, e.g., about the plausibility of the testimony. Finally, other biases, such as confirmation bias, hindsight bias, and outcome bias are frequently observed in the criminal justice system. For example, confirmation bias is the favoring of information that confirms an individual's preconceptions or hypotheses independently of the truth of the information. Forensic findings can be also interpreted in a biased way. [citations omitted]​

Be that as it may, witness testimony is acceptable as circumstantial evidence. The said witness is subject to cross-examination and that is when their version of direct testimony is tested. The jury - with the legal guidance of the judge - is free to take it or leave it. It really is as crude as that. But they do not come to a verdict based solely on the testimony of one witness, they look at the case as a whole.



No. These are public records. Further, you have repeatedly insisted that judicial facts, once determined by a court of first instance, cannot, or at least should not, be changed, or even questioned. And yet, most of the examples you list here can and do change throughout a person's lifetime. Even information on a birth certificate can be changed in certain circumstances (e.g., a court finding of paternity).


No. Courts can and do make mistakes. You are quick to claim that "the court got it wrong" whenever an appeals court or the ECHR rules in favor of Amanda or Raffaele, yet, whenever a court has found a "judicial fact" that works against them, you insist it must be set in stone and not even questioned.


See article excerpt above.


Which you decry as corrupt or incompetent whenever Amanda and Raffaele's convictions are overturned.


You just contradicted yourself.


Citation to where Madison was in a relationship with anyone who worked for RS.


Here is a link to the article. Kindly quote the sections that state that Amanda was "RAILROADED!!" or that contain "all kind of claims of torture."


Do you dispute that the all-night interrogations took place? Amanda and Raffaele went to the police station after 10:00pm, and Amanda signed her statement at 5:30am.


Kindly quote the section where Mignini is characterized as "evil." There is one uncomplimentary statement about him, but the article makes clear that that is how Knox's supporters view him, and not necessarily how the author views him.


You're absolutely right, Vixen. The author really should have interviewed Mignini and presented his views on the case in the article as well. Oh, wait, the author did. :rolleyes:


Please stop making statements that are unsupported by facts.
 
A question, Vixen. Had you not read the RS article and you were just parroting talking points from a guilter website, or had you read the article and you were just lying about what it said?

As I recall it was 'ex-FBI' agent Steve [_?] Moore who coined the 'railroaded' term based on the RS article. His wife, Michelle even confronted the prosecution in the court room shouting abuse at them. It was Moore who invented the 'tag teams of twelve' interrogating AK 'all night' and for '53-hours'.

What Gogerty-Marriott did - the PR Agency - was to seize on all the attacks on the prosecutor to promulgate the myth it was a sitch up. It got Doug Preston on board, who had all kinds of big film contacts. Preston had a MASSIVE chip on his shoulder after Mignini threatened to prosecute him unless he left Italy, re the Monster of Florence case, in which he was writing a book with Italian journalist, Spezi. That was an ongoing investigation hence the conflict.

There was also the crime-boff Jim somebody or other who had a show in which he could slag off the Italian prosecutors to his hearts content for US audiences.

.

.
 
Last edited:
Possibly I didn't make myself clear, but it's not worth arguing about or reviewing the thread. You claimed that Vanessa is corrupt, full stop, with no qualifiers, because of the (false) claims that she either attempted to obtain unauthorized information about, or interfere in, the investigation of Raffaele. But you want to qualify Napoleoni's undoubted corruption so that you can pretend we shouldn't even be asking whether that corruption could have extended to the use of unethical, or even illegal, methods in the investigation of Meredith's murder that might have compromised its outcome.

IOW, you want to insinuate that Napoleoni only abused her authority to benefit herself in a personal matter, and that there's thus no reason to think she would have abused her authority in an official matter. But that doesn't follow, as she would have benefitted enormously professionally from solving the case, and much to lose, professionally, if she'd had to admit that mistakes had been made (e.g., that Amanda and Raffaele had been wrongly accused), or she'd made her bosses (including MIgnini) look bad.


You still haven't provided any proof of this, and you provided something that said the opposite.


See above.

When I said Vanessa Sollecito was corrupt it was in the context of her trying to help out her brother, via her position in the Carabinieri. I am sure she is otherwise perfectly fine. She was disciplined and sacked. You don't get sacked for no reason.


.
 
Last edited:
As discussed, there was a report on a regional TV network's website before 4:00pm local time.


Granting, arguendo, that this is true, why do you imagine that they don't have local news programs in Perugia?


For someone who purports to have a "logical, mathematical, and objective mindset," you certainly deploy a lot of arguments from personal incredulity. First, you do realize that the guards often control what's on TV (at least in the common areas), don't you (so the inmates don't fight over what to watch, or damage or lose the remote controls)? Second, did it occur to you that some of those (supposedly) "mostly lower-class inmates," even if they weren't normally interested in the news, might have been following a sensational(ized) story about the local murder of a British exchange student?


Well, if it wasn't on the British news before 20 Nov 2007, I doubt it was in Italy or the USA much earlier than that. The arrest was the big news. Most news outlets did not name the so-called 'fourth person'.



.
 
I'll ask again...

If the court does not have sufficient evidence to convict, but the defendant is not able to prove their innocence, how could the court rule them "not guilty", and on what basis would they do that? It seems to me if a court has decided there is insufficient evidence to convict, but innocence has not been proven, the court would have no other option than to acquit due to insufficient evidence.

That wouldn't be a Supreme Court decision, it would be a lower court one.

.
 
I seem to recall having this discussion just a few short days ago, and I provided to you multiple instances where the prosecution fed the media lies, which were then embellished further by a media eager to sell copies/website hits. So now you're back to this "massive PR campaign" nonsense again.

Actually, I never did ask you to provide an example of something coming from this "massive PR campaign" that was false. We all know Curt hired Marriott to handle media requests for the family, and we also know the firm later tried to correct some of the more egregious falsehoods being pushed in the media, but no one has ever provided examples of falsehoods being promoted by Marriott. Can you?

Apropos of this, looking at the cases ECHR cites, I can't remember which one it was, Kotthari [_sp?], Salduz or the Turkish guy, Yudiz [_sp?] but in his application he bitterly complained that press coverage had severely prejudiced his case. The ECHR dismissed this part of his claim on the grounds that it is quite normal for the press to report on ongoing crime cases and what happens in court, etcetera. The press are subject to their own country's contempt of court laws. In the UK there is subjudice but in Roman law Europe, where information gathering is a part of the process, it is more lax. Having said that, there was an Italian journalist, Severiini [_sp?] who wanted to publish Knox' song about the murder and other lurid details but was successfully sued to stop her.



.
 
That the fatal wound was made by stabbing and then sawing a gash back and forth was not known until the autopsy. To the naked eye, it looked like her throat had been slashed. Frankly, I think you do understand that. What I can't understand is your inability to admit it.

And Altieri knew that, how?
1. I can find no evidence in his Dec. 21 deposition nor in his testimony that Altieri ever claimed seeing someone making a throat slashing motion. Please quote and cite him doing so or, for that matter, anyone claiming to have seen anyone at the crime scene doing so.
2. HIs testimony (which repeats his Dec. 21 deposition details) has been presented more than once earlier but since you seem to have forgotten. Please point out where he says he saw someone making a throat cutting gesture.

Answer:...."one of the Carabinieri who was out there described what had happened, saying that her throat had been slit and the fact that she had also struggled, let's say, and so I learned this from that."

PROSECUTOR - you learned this, do you know if others knew, too? In particular...

WITNESS - Yes, there was Paola next to me who heard it."

"PROSECUTOR - Here, do you remember if Sollecito, at the police station, did he talk about this matter? What did he say?

WITNESS - Look, the only exchange was when we were going to the police station in my car, say, when he asked if she was dead. I was a little shocked by the question, I told him "yes". And then after he asked, if I’m not mistaken, how she died, you know, something like that, and then I explained what I had heard..."

"(Defense)LAWYER -... You said to Amanda: I heard that there is a girl... she was killed because her throat was slit and she started crying as a result.

WITNESS – yes.

LAWYER - Was Sollecito there at this time?

WITNESS – He was in the car, in the back seat."
(Court transcript Altieri testimony, Feb. 6, 2009)
 
Boy, some people are still REALLY pissed that the Italian system finally did its job (although far too belatedly, and it still cannot do its job re Knox's criminal slander conviction). It's almost as if those people still cling to the misguided belief that there was sufficient evidence - credible, reliable evidence, that is - to safely convict Knox and/or Sollecito of anything to do with the murder. It's almost as if they still refuse to believe that not only was there not one piece of (credible, reliable) evidence pointing to the involvement of Knox and/or Sollecito... but also that all of the evidence was in fact entirely compatible with Guede acting alone (and there was more than enough inculpatory evidence to convict Guede of the murder).

Not really too sure why all but one person here thinks there's any point whatsoever in rehashing the murder-related aspects of this case. I can understand ongoing discussions around Knox's still-live criminal slander conviction, but the other stuff? Disengage already........

Oh, hallo. At least Guede stuck to the same story consistently from the moment he was chatting to his old school pal, Giacomo Benedetti to when he was doing his own handwritten statements before even being arrested. The nature of the wound proves there was more than one assailant - the lack of defence wounds for a start. Guede did have knife wounds on his hands consistent with fighting someone off. I mean he's a liar regarding his own culpability but he almost certainly entered through the front door and not through the window.

.
 
And it indirectly refers to the person who made those admonitions.

Erm, SpitfireIX is perfectly au fait with the English language and hence shouldn't need to be told to cut out an excess usage of trite clichés and aping the platitudes of other posters. Pointing this out is not ad hominem, any more than asking someone not to swear or write in capitals. It is called communication. Ad hominem means a personal attack on personal characteristics not their comments. It is really not an ad hominem to have the opinion someone's comment is stupid or unworthy.


.
 
Stacyhs said:
Per usual, you ignore the many provided articles that prove you wrong and make up your own facts.
FACT: Guede's name was released to the public on Nov. 19, not "around lunchtime" on Nov. 20.
FACT: A TV was in Knox's cell as in every cell.
FACT: News does NOT have to be "official"; it breaks when it's reported. The media doesn't need to have it made official by the police to report something.
FACT: Watching TV, including the news, is a very common way for inmates to pass the time.

"Hagiography": hyperbole used with the intent to discredit. See? We do understand how it works! "We" aren't saying she learned his name when it was read out on the news: SHE IS.

Denial of the quoted and cited facts.


Fact not in evidence.





LOL! Mignini thinks a lot of weird things including it "was a 'sacrificial rite' that should have taken place on Halloween", because only left shoeprints were found there could be masonic influence, and that he's an Italian Sherlock Holmes.


No, they didn't 'uphold' it because they had no power to say otherwise since Chieffi had already confirmed that "judicial fact".

Judicial fact "Knox covered for Guede" vs common sense:

Knox pointed out Guede's feces to the police.
Knox pointed out Guede's bloody footprint to the police. If it had been Sollecito's they'd have gotten rid of it.
Knox did not mop away Guede's bloody shoeprints in the hallway or kitchen.
Knox did not remove the pillowcase with his bloody handprint on it.
Goes to show how cunning AK was and is. Mignini descrined her as 'narcissistic, transgressive and manipulative', a fine actor and a 'talented liar'.
LOL! That really did make me laugh out loud! Knox is "cunning" by deliberately leaving and pointing out evidence of Guede to the police while trying to cover for him days later by naming Lumumba instead! Wow. I've read some illogical excuses before but that one takes the 🎂!

Who cares what 'satanic rite' Sherlock Mignini has to say?

He is probably not far wrong to link the crime to Hallowe'en, given RS' penchant for extreme experiences, vampire-slaying manga and collection of knives, Knox, someone who enjoys shocking people. Boiling with rage at the perception Mez had stolen her job, snubbed her at Hallowe'en, had the handsome skiing Italian downstairs, popular, in demand, whilst AK was stuck with the swotty incel.
That's Nick van der Leek level rubbish.
 
LOL! That really did make me laugh out loud! Knox is "cunning" by deliberately leaving and pointing out evidence of Guede to the police while trying to cover for him days later by naming Lumumba instead! Wow. I've read some illogical excuses before but that one takes the 🎂!

Who cares what 'satanic rite' Sherlock Mignini has to say?


That's Nick van der Leek level rubbish.


It was pointing to Guede without having to say his name. She could hardly name him without revealing she was with him.


Don't worry about it. Not everyone has Sherlock Holmes'-level powers of deduction. Sherlock Holmes wouldn't be special if everybody did, eh? 🕵️‍♂️
 
It was pointing to Guede without having to say his name. She could hardly name him without revealing she was with him.
How does intentionally leading the police to Guede COVER for him? If she were guilty, why would she want to hand the police the man who could identify her? That's a moronic explanation.
Don't worry about it. Not everyone has Sherlock Holmes'-level powers of deduction. Sherlock Holmes wouldn't be special if everybody did, eh? 🕵️‍♂️
True. And Mignini is certainly no Sherlock Holmes as Holmes were never claim that only women would cover the body of their victim or immediately conclude a break-in was fake before doing an iota of investigation. Nor would Holmes rush out and arrest someone before even bothering to find out if they had an alibi.
 
How does intentionally leading the police to Guede COVER for him? If she were guilty, why would she want to hand the police the man who could identify her? That's a moronic explanation.

True. And Mignini is certainly no Sherlock Holmes as Holmes were never claim that only women would cover the body of their victim or immediately conclude a break-in was fake before doing an iota of investigation. Nor would Holmes rush out and arrest someone before even bothering to find out if they had an alibi.

The pair thought they had committed the perfect murder,


.


.
 
The pair thought they had committed the perfect murder,
Sigh. That's a truly moronic claim. "Hey, Officer, here's my blood on the faucet and my boyfriend's bloody footprint on the rug! Don't miss those!" And just in case, she hands the police the guy who can testify against her and Sollecito by pointing out his feces and leaving his bloody shoe prints in the corridor...before "covering up" for him later!
If that makes sense to you, then I can't help you.
 
Vixen, I'm still waiting for you to quote and cite Altieri or anyone claiming they saw someone making a "cut throat" gesture.
 
Last edited:
Sigh. That's a truly moronic claim. "Hey, Officer, here's my blood on the faucet and my boyfriend's bloody footprint on the rug! Don't miss those!" And just in case, she hands the police the guy who can testify against her and Sollecito by pointing out his feces and leaving his bloody shoe prints in the corridor...before "covering up" for him later!
If that makes sense to you, then I can't help you.

Ah penny drops. I can now see why you don't get it.



.
 
One great example of this is the way in which Vixen keeps trying to claim that Amanda's lawyers somehow hoodwinked the ECHR into believing she was a suspect, when she technically wasn't, and thus not entitled to a lawyer (conveniently ignoring all the other glaring problems with the interrogation and her statement).

The fact is, Amanda clearly was a de facto suspect, and thus was entitled to a lawyer under the Convention, no matter what technicalities of Italian law might or might not have applied.
I should have mentioned that this also applies to Raffaele, because he was de facto suspected of being, at a minimum, an accessory after the fact, and I expect that this will come up if his compensation case makes it to the ECHR.
 
An example is of a textbook I read - soz, forget which one - in which the author states he or she had had to agree to let the Knox/Mellas parents state their view of the case, and were given a chapter. Being the parents, they are hardly going to be impartial or neutral! I believe both parents know perfectly well their daughter did it - there is one clip of Edda giving AK a funny look - and we all saw shouty, angry red-faced Curt, to know the PR campaign was all about rescuing the reputation of the parents. It's understandable in that respect but it feeds the public a less than full picture. There is a serial child-killer in the UK who has also just recently hired a PR firm, having failed in the objective air of the courtroom.
Of course you do. :rolleyes:
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom