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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

Unfortunately, when there is a scandalous incident, there is strong public interest. Gossip rags like the DAILY MAIL will feed heavily biased articles towards their imagined audiences. But as ever with the press, what comes first, prurient press or prurient public interest? Was Knox found scandalous because of the terrible, terrible crime committed or was it only scandalous because the press made it so?

As for Mignini he has explained that as a prosecutor he has no choice but to file charges under the Italian Criminal Code, hence all the side shows of people being charged for defaming an officer. As has been pointed out, Italy DOES have and HAS HAD enormous problems with Mafia corruption (and no, this is not a conspiracy theory it is factual) which is why Italy has such draconian laws on defaming officers - Calunnia - that might subvert justice.

This latter issue is very different from writing salacious articles to feed the public's desire to know more about a shocking event.



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Meredith's murder was not a "scandalous incident" and gossip rags like the DM would have had nothing to write if Mignini wasn't feeding them lies and baseless, scandalous speculation.

Mignini has a reputation of prosecuting those who disagree with him, but that's irrelevant here. What you wrote was;

Or do you think trying a serious murder/rape case - as in the Kercher case - outside of court via tabloid newspapers and PR agencies upholds the principle of the rule of law - i.e., in a criminal court of law only, and by means of a fair trial?

Those are YOUR words. Apparently what you meant was the defense should not try to influence a case through the media, but that you have no problem with the prosecution feeding the media lies to influence the case.
 
Please cite the sentence in which I mentioned a seasoned detective in respect of the wall.

The seasoned detective made the comment about the sheet. I can confirm I saw that comment made.
I read your post the same way. You caused the confusion because you never in-line your responses to lengthy posts or otherwise make clear what parts you're responding to. This may be partly out of laziness, but it's undoubtedly primarily so that you can avoid answering questions that you find problematic without drawing additional attention. You claim people are attempting to stop you from debating, yet you consistently ignore or otherwise evade questions that are clearly problematic to your various fringe theories.
 
Here's a general statement from the US Department of State* on the issue of enforcement of a foreign court civil judgment in the US:



So all the complaining by PGP about this issue of Knox not paying the award to Lumumba on the basis of a foreign court judgment is simply nonsense. To date, Patrick Diya Lumumba has not taken any action in the US to collect the award, as far as is publicly known.

* travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/internl-judicial-asst/Enforcement-of-Judgements.html
Why hasn't Lumumba taken any legal action in the US to collect the award granted in the Italian judgments of the Knox convictions for calunnia?

Assuming Lumumba and his lawyer looked at this possibility, they would have seen several significant barriers to a successful US lawsuit:

1. The US court would require that the foreign judgment be final.

The current re-conviction is not final under international law. Under international - Council of Europe - law, the re-conviction is a continuation of the previous calunnia case that was annulled. The re-conviction remains subject to review by the Committee of Ministers for compliance or non-compliance with the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy. Italy to date has not to date supplied an Action Report to the CoM, according to the DEJ/CoM website {HUDOC EXEC) so under international law, without an Action Report approved by the CoM, the re-conviction cannot be considered final under international law. The annulment of the first conviction for calunnia on the basis of CPP Article 628 bis, the CoE treaty signed by Italy, and the Italian Constitution all demonstrate that the ECHR serves a supreme court function in Italy on human rights issues, and a final judgment in the case must conform to the conclusion and spirit of the ECHR judgment.

2. The US court would require that the plaintiff demonstrate convincingly that the foreign judgment satisfied US due process requirements and that the trial was fair.

Again, this would seem to be an impossible task, considering the ECHR judgment and the failure of the proceedings leading to the re-conviction to have remedied any unfairness by its use of Knox's written recantation (recognized as such by the ECHR judgment) as evidence of calunnia.

3. The US court may see the award to Lumumba as a penal judgment rather than as a compensatory judgment, and typically the US civil courts do not enforce penal judgments.

Penal judgments. US courts ordinarily do not enforce the penal laws of another country (Huntington v Attrill, 146 U.S. 657, 673-74 (1892)). An award to a private individual may still be considered "penal" in nature if it seeks to address a public wrong rather than to compensate an individual

See, among other sources:



 
The ECHR cannot order a court as to what verdict under criminal law it can make. It said the trial was irretrievably unfair (under the mistaken belief Knox was a defendant or the accused) Italy took it on board, vacated the conviction and sent it back down to be tried again. There is a third party in this, Lumumba. I know this will sound 'woke' to some, but Lumumba also is entitled to legal redress arising from the serious crime of calunnia.
And we're back to special pleading. "We should unquestioningly respect the rule of law whenever a court rules against Amanda Knox, but whenever a court rules in favor of Amanda Knox, it was corrupt, incompetent, or mistaken." :rolleyes:

Further, from the judgment (translated from the French with Google Translate):

2. Application of general principles to the facts of the case​
(a) The applicability of Article 6 of the Convention​
147. The Court notes at the outset that the first question which arises in the present case is whether Article 6 § 1 of the Convention was applicable to the facts of the case. It recalls in this regard that, on 6 November 2007, the applicant was heard twice : at 1.45 a.m. and at 5.45 a.m.​
148. It notes that the two statements had originally been collected as part of the police's acquisition of summary information, a phase during which the applicant had not formally been subjected to investigations.​
149. As regards the statements taken at 1.45 a.m. , the Court reiterates that the guarantees afforded by Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 of the Convention apply to any " charged person " within the autonomous meaning of that term under the Convention. A " criminal charge " arises when a person is formally charged by the competent authorities or when the actions taken by those authorities in response to the suspicions against him have significant repercussions on his situation ( Simeonovi , cited above, §§ 110-111).​
150. Applying this principle to the present case, the Court therefore questions whether, at the time of the hearings, the domestic authorities had plausible reasons to suspect that the applicant was involved in the murder of MK.​
151. It notes in this regard that the applicant had already been interviewed by the police on 2, 3 and 4 November 2007 and that her phone had been tapped. It notes that it is also clear from the facts of the case that, on the evening of 5 November 2007, the investigators' attention was focused on the applicant (see paragraphs 12-14 above). It notes that, although the applicant had gone to the police station of her own accord, she was questioned in the corridor by police officers who then continued to question her in a room where she was subjected, on two occasions and for hours, to intensive interrogation.​
152. However, in the Court's view, even assuming that these elements are not sufficient to conclude that, at 1:45 a.m. on 6 November 2007, the applicant could be considered a suspect within the meaning of its case-law, it must be noted that, as the Government acknowledged, when she made her statements at 5:45 a.m. before the public prosecutor, the applicant had formally acquired the status of a person under investigation. The Court considers that there is therefore no doubt that, at 5:45 a.m. at the latest, the applicant was the subject of a criminal charge within the meaning of the Convention ( Ibrahim and Others , cited above, § 296). [bolding mine]​

You keep trying to pretend, like Mignini, that Knox technically wasn't a suspect, so she technically wasn't facing a criminal charge, and that therefore she technically wasn't required to have a lawyer. However, as the ECHR stated, and you either don't know, or pretend not to know, the Convention doesn't make exceptions for loopholes and technicalities. Knox was clearly entitled to a lawyer under the ECHR, regardless of whatever Italian law has to say on the matter, and the Italian authorities clearly violated her right to have one, your whining to the contrary notwithstanding. And if she had had a lawyer, and she had still made her statement, then there would have been no question that it was actually voluntary, as you like to keep claiming it was.
 
Well, the term 'mafia' can be used in two different ways. One, to mean serious organised crime and two, the much more historic one of simply 'family' as the word translates. As you know, Italy is a modern country and not so long a go it used to be a whole load of different regions and provinces with their own self rule. Different tribes and what have you. So these families would have codes of loyalty, honour and mutual benefit, and they'd be very insular, in particular the island regions, such as Sicily. Also in Italy there is a strong fad for freemasonry, again not in itself particularly sinister, except that the Catholic Church disapproves.

As for Hellmann, my insider intelligence is as follows:


Pratillo Hellmann is wealthy but he is definitely not among the richest families in Italy. The word "rich" should be probably employed for another magnitude. He has a villa in Cortina d'Ampezzo, owns several collection cars and is a member of some exclusive clubs (he was a speaker at the Perugia vintage car collectors association). But I can't say he's extraordinarily rich. I can say he's extraordinarily masonic, being that the Hellmann family descends from the Ranier-Hellmann family in Padua.

Maresca had indeed an option to request impeachment. Galati & Costagliola had the option too. Mignini, instead, wanted to do that but he had no office power to do it

It's worth to note that the first official Masonic lodge in Italy was founded in Venice, I think in 1805 (?), was named the Grande Oriente d'Italia, but the founders were four persons, one of them was Mr. Bernardino Renier, the first husband of the mentioned lady; Bernardino dies early, the lady takes over his masonic prestige and would later change name and marry the Austrian officer.

Anyway there is also this suspicion tha part of the money came directly from Trump. Why? The reason is that, Trump appeared to know in advance about the outcome of the Perugian appeal in 2011.

Both Trump & Knox herself publicly admitted that Trump "helped" the family. And she thanked Trump for his support in the Netflix documentary. But actually - even recently - Knox unwittingly pointed out that Trump would have "helped" her rather strangely, by calling for a boycott of Italy unless she was acquitted and so possibly just attracting anti-Americanism. but Trump is an opportunist character; he doesn't pick any tough stance on principle; he wouldn't call for a boycott of Italy unless he expected that was just going to be publicity for him. Now, if you look at the timings of Trump "boycott" declaration, you'll find out curious things one curious thing is that Knox lies about it. You can see that she lies when she contradicts herself flatly: she thanks him in the Netflix documentary (which she shot in 2014) and has no criticism about his aggressive boycott call; but on the WSH column she tells a completely different story, saying that his declaration has raised anti-Americanism "in the courtroom" and therefore pit the courtroom against her. What she says clearly nonsense, since Hellmann acquitted her of murder just after Trump's declaration.

So I'll tell you some "inside news" I forgot to tell you: I found out that one reliable "source" has told about Pratillo Hellmann's bribe.

The source has been Pratillo Hellmann's lawyer. He said - in an unsolicited conversation - that Hellmann received on 500.000 US $ on a bank account. He pointed out that it was US dollars, not Euros.

He told that directly to Mignini while sitting at a table at a Perugian pub. Basically suggesting it, thus, I suppose, as a track. Unfortunately neither Mignini or the lawyers friends sitting there were able to record him - it was not expected.

There are also other informal declaration that I know were made, providing other pieces of information. The lawyer didn't know the overall amount of the bribe but said he knew Zanetti was corrupted as well. What we know from other sources is that the overall amount of the bribe was about 2 million Euros.

The lawyer made this statement only 1 month ago.

No. There must be a number of other people.

At least 5 people were corrupted

The lawyer says this because this is Perugia, Italy. A place where people can't really "hide" thing. We call these kind of secrets "a Pulcinella's secret". Also the Narducci - Monster of Florence involvement was a Pulcinella's secret. Actually the 2 million figure was a figure already known and talked about days before the verdict. And it was the reason why a crowd gathered in front of the court chanting "vergogna"

In the complicated parochial relations between people of Perugia, people know that there are "secrets" and they have to keep some things under the table, but this is only on a certain public level, since everybody knows they are keeping things under the table, so they tell different things when they talk or socialize, they talk at different "levels"

Yes, but the Kercher family is also making some serious strategic mistakes. One of the serious "mistakes" over the latest times - let me say it clearly - is to keep Maresca as their attorney. But Maresca's behaviour shows that actually he's not "skeptical". He wants to get out from the case. he is sick of the case. With the 5th chambers verdict Maresca realized the political nature of the case he would be handling.

But this type of case, so typically high-profile and "political" within the judiciary, is not what the Maresca law firma wants. It is not the kind of law firma that can do that. It's not that Maresca is "too small". It's that - this is my educated guess and understanding, based on observing his environment - he and his clients are too invested in keeping good relations with too many subjects.
He just can't go to war against the Florentine political establishment

There are lawyers in Italy - both "big" and "small" ones - who would be ready to pick a completely different strategy. I know some, and there are famous ones. But they are not Maresca. You need a different kind of "activist" lawyer

Maresca was a good attorney, until the last phase. What Maresca did was - in many ways not differently than what Ghirga did - he lowered the guard before the game was completely finished. Assuming that there was nothing left to do. We say he "pulled the oars into the boat", assuming the boat was just about to arrive. Maresca in fact made a couple of very serious errors during the trials.

The first capital error was committed on the Perugian appeal, it was his choice to not impeach the Hellmann court.

He is from Padua. In Veneto. The name Hellmann comes from the name that the illustrious Venetian lady (the widow of Renier) acquired from his second husband, who was an officer of the Austrian army (at the time Venice was part of the Austrian Empire). The officer, Mr. Hellmann, had a status significantly lower in prestige than the noble Mr. Renier and his wife, therefore the really "important" person was the Lady, who is also remembered for having donated an art collection to the city. The lady was quite important and I guess that's why the name "Hellmann" seems to keep on living as a second family name (his surname is Pratillo Hellmann; therefore he's a person with two surnames). The "second" place suggests that the surname was matrilinear, comes from the lady's branch (after she acquired it from the Austrian officer, it became the matrilinear name).



That's the inside story as to why Hellmann resigned. and why he was never impeached for his subversive behaviour.
FarDazzlingImperatorangel-max-1mb.gif

I'm not often surprised by what you write any more, but this load of rubbish managed to do it.
 
You miss the point. The acoustics in that waiting room was poor. All the phone-tapper could hear was the whirring of the air-conditioning and other sundry noises inhibiting a clear sound of what was being said. Then, suddenly, as clear as a bell, Knox pitched her voice to ensure her diatribe against Shaky could be heard by anyone eavesdropping.
I posted the link to the recording and anyone who bothered to listen to it knows your claim is false. That "All the phone-tapper could hear was the whirring of the air-conditioning and other sundry noises" is your usual avoidance of addressing the fact that Knox said nothing new regarding Shaky in that recording that she had not told the police the day before.

"Shaky was loudly named" and "The pair seemed aware they were being tapped as Knox spoke up to declare how dodgy Shaky was, " are obvious and blatant insinuations that Knox was trying to implicate an innocent black man even before the Nov. 5/6 interrogation. It fails spectacularly.
 
Direct question, Vixen, and a much better example: Do you believe Cameron Todd WillinghamWP was guilty? And kindly don't evade the issue by claiming unfamiliarity with the case.

(Note: From now on, I'll be breaking all direct questions out as separate posts, in order to give you less of an opportunity to pretend not to notice them.)
Doesn't work. I've asked her repeatedly several questions which she just ignores.
 
You miss the point. The acoustics in that waiting room was poor. All the phone-tapper could hear was the whirring of the air-conditioning and other sundry noises inhibiting a clear sound of what was being said. Then, suddenly, as clear as a bell, Knox pitched her voice to ensure her diatribe against Shaky could be heard by anyone eavesdropping.
I've had a listen, and this description of that recording is a fantasy. The voices are sometimes clear and sometimes mumbling. Sometimes in Italian and sometimes in English. Sometimes the voices raise slightly if they talk across each other, which sounds entirely natural and unforced. There are no "stage whispers" there playacting for some imagined eavesdropper who they guess might have bugged the room.

What an elaborate fantasy you weave.
 
If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk with solid evidence, why is it necessary for guilters to write nonsense about Mafia conspiracies etc.

Obviously because we're dealing with master criminals here.

Only the most perceptive armchair investigators can grasp the full elaborate story and not be hoodwinked by the double, triple or even quadruple bluffs employed by these evil masterminds. The police probably did their best but this pair ran rings around them, purely for the thrill of toying with the authorities.

And they'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for etc etc.
 
Well, the term 'mafia' can be used in two different ways. One, to mean serious organised crime and two, the much more historic one of simply 'family' as the word translates. As you know, Italy is a modern country and not so long a go it used to be a whole load of different regions and provinces with their own self rule. Different tribes and what have you. So these families would have codes of loyalty, honour and mutual benefit, and they'd be very insular, in particular the island regions, such as Sicily. Also in Italy there is a strong fad for freemasonry, again not in itself particularly sinister, except that the Catholic Church disapproves.

As for Hellmann, my insider intelligence is as follows:


Pratillo Hellmann is wealthy but he is definitely not among the richest families in Italy. The word "rich" should be probably employed for another magnitude. He has a villa in Cortina d'Ampezzo, owns several collection cars and is a member of some exclusive clubs (he was a speaker at the Perugia vintage car collectors association). But I can't say he's extraordinarily rich. I can say he's extraordinarily masonic, being that the Hellmann family descends from the Ranier-Hellmann family in Padua.

Maresca had indeed an option to request impeachment. Galati & Costagliola had the option too. Mignini, instead, wanted to do that but he had no office power to do it

It's worth to note that the first official Masonic lodge in Italy was founded in Venice, I think in 1805 (?), was named the Grande Oriente d'Italia, but the founders were four persons, one of them was Mr. Bernardino Renier, the first husband of the mentioned lady; Bernardino dies early, the lady takes over his masonic prestige and would later change name and marry the Austrian officer.

Anyway there is also this suspicion tha part of the money came directly from Trump. Why? The reason is that, Trump appeared to know in advance about the outcome of the Perugian appeal in 2011.

Both Trump & Knox herself publicly admitted that Trump "helped" the family. And she thanked Trump for his support in the Netflix documentary. But actually - even recently - Knox unwittingly pointed out that Trump would have "helped" her rather strangely, by calling for a boycott of Italy unless she was acquitted and so possibly just attracting anti-Americanism. but Trump is an opportunist character; he doesn't pick any tough stance on principle; he wouldn't call for a boycott of Italy unless he expected that was just going to be publicity for him. Now, if you look at the timings of Trump "boycott" declaration, you'll find out curious things one curious thing is that Knox lies about it. You can see that she lies when she contradicts herself flatly: she thanks him in the Netflix documentary (which she shot in 2014) and has no criticism about his aggressive boycott call; but on the WSH column she tells a completely different story, saying that his declaration has raised anti-Americanism "in the courtroom" and therefore pit the courtroom against her. What she says clearly nonsense, since Hellmann acquitted her of murder just after Trump's declaration.

So I'll tell you some "inside news" I forgot to tell you: I found out that one reliable "source" has told about Pratillo Hellmann's bribe.

The source has been Pratillo Hellmann's lawyer. He said - in an unsolicited conversation - that Hellmann received on 500.000 US $ on a bank account. He pointed out that it was US dollars, not Euros.

He told that directly to Mignini while sitting at a table at a Perugian pub. Basically suggesting it, thus, I suppose, as a track. Unfortunately neither Mignini or the lawyers friends sitting there were able to record him - it was not expected.

There are also other informal declaration that I know were made, providing other pieces of information. The lawyer didn't know the overall amount of the bribe but said he knew Zanetti was corrupted as well. What we know from other sources is that the overall amount of the bribe was about 2 million Euros.

The lawyer made this statement only 1 month ago.

No. There must be a number of other people.

At least 5 people were corrupted

The lawyer says this because this is Perugia, Italy. A place where people can't really "hide" thing. We call these kind of secrets "a Pulcinella's secret". Also the Narducci - Monster of Florence involvement was a Pulcinella's secret. Actually the 2 million figure was a figure already known and talked about days before the verdict. And it was the reason why a crowd gathered in front of the court chanting "vergogna"

In the complicated parochial relations between people of Perugia, people know that there are "secrets" and they have to keep some things under the table, but this is only on a certain public level, since everybody knows they are keeping things under the table, so they tell different things when they talk or socialize, they talk at different "levels"

Yes, but the Kercher family is also making some serious strategic mistakes. One of the serious "mistakes" over the latest times - let me say it clearly - is to keep Maresca as their attorney. But Maresca's behaviour shows that actually he's not "skeptical". He wants to get out from the case. he is sick of the case. With the 5th chambers verdict Maresca realized the political nature of the case he would be handling.

But this type of case, so typically high-profile and "political" within the judiciary, is not what the Maresca law firma wants. It is not the kind of law firma that can do that. It's not that Maresca is "too small". It's that - this is my educated guess and understanding, based on observing his environment - he and his clients are too invested in keeping good relations with too many subjects.
He just can't go to war against the Florentine political establishment

There are lawyers in Italy - both "big" and "small" ones - who would be ready to pick a completely different strategy. I know some, and there are famous ones. But they are not Maresca. You need a different kind of "activist" lawyer

Maresca was a good attorney, until the last phase. What Maresca did was - in many ways not differently than what Ghirga did - he lowered the guard before the game was completely finished. Assuming that there was nothing left to do. We say he "pulled the oars into the boat", assuming the boat was just about to arrive. Maresca in fact made a couple of very serious errors during the trials.

The first capital error was committed on the Perugian appeal, it was his choice to not impeach the Hellmann court.

He is from Padua. In Veneto. The name Hellmann comes from the name that the illustrious Venetian lady (the widow of Renier) acquired from his second husband, who was an officer of the Austrian army (at the time Venice was part of the Austrian Empire). The officer, Mr. Hellmann, had a status significantly lower in prestige than the noble Mr. Renier and his wife, therefore the really "important" person was the Lady, who is also remembered for having donated an art collection to the city. The lady was quite important and I guess that's why the name "Hellmann" seems to keep on living as a second family name (his surname is Pratillo Hellmann; therefore he's a person with two surnames). The "second" place suggests that the surname was matrilinear, comes from the lady's branch (after she acquired it from the Austrian officer, it became the matrilinear name).



That's the inside story as to why Hellmann resigned. and why he was never impeached for his subversive behaviour.




.
I sometimes wonder if guilters are on a mission to be as hypocritical as possible and they are taking part in a hypocrisy Olympics. This post makes a false claim that Hellman received a bribe to find Amanda and Raffaele not guilty. Amanda was viciously attacked for falsely accusing Lumumba and Vixen regards it as a serious issue and Amanda must pay damages to Lumumba. Guilters on the other hand can falsely accuse people of crimes without any repreccusions and regard it as a non issue. They viciously and obsessively attack Amanda for lying whilst spreading extremely malicious lies about people. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk why is it necessary to resort to making false accusations.
 
Why hasn't Lumumba taken any legal action in the US to collect the award granted in the Italian judgments of the Knox convictions for calunnia?

Assuming Lumumba and his lawyer looked at this possibility, they would have seen several significant barriers to a successful US lawsuit:

1. The US court would require that the foreign judgment be final.

The current re-conviction is not final under international law. Under international - Council of Europe - law, the re-conviction is a continuation of the previous calunnia case that was annulled. The re-conviction remains subject to review by the Committee of Ministers for compliance or non-compliance with the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy. Italy to date has not to date supplied an Action Report to the CoM, according to the DEJ/CoM website {HUDOC EXEC) so under international law, without an Action Report approved by the CoM, the re-conviction cannot be considered final under international law. The annulment of the first conviction for calunnia on the basis of CPP Article 628 bis, the CoE treaty signed by Italy, and the Italian Constitution all demonstrate that the ECHR serves a supreme court function in Italy on human rights issues, and a final judgment in the case must conform to the conclusion and spirit of the ECHR judgment.

2. The US court would require that the plaintiff demonstrate convincingly that the foreign judgment satisfied US due process requirements and that the trial was fair.

Again, this would seem to be an impossible task, considering the ECHR judgment and the failure of the proceedings leading to the re-conviction to have remedied any unfairness by its use of Knox's written recantation (recognized as such by the ECHR judgment) as evidence of calunnia.

3. The US court may see the award to Lumumba as a penal judgment rather than as a compensatory judgment, and typically the US civil courts do not enforce penal judgments.



See, among other sources:





I think you've answered your own question: "1. The US court would require that the foreign judgment be final".

In addition,, there wouldn't be any issues with double jeopardy as there has been a guilty verdict for Calunnia Guilty 5 / Not Guilty 0.


.
 
And we're back to special pleading. "We should unquestioningly respect the rule of law whenever a court rules against Amanda Knox, but whenever a court rules in favor of Amanda Knox, it was corrupt, incompetent, or mistaken." :rolleyes:

Further, from the judgment (translated from the French with Google Translate):

2. Application of general principles to the facts of the case​
(a) The applicability of Article 6 of the Convention​
147. The Court notes at the outset that the first question which arises in the present case is whether Article 6 § 1 of the Convention was applicable to the facts of the case. It recalls in this regard that, on 6 November 2007, the applicant was heard twice : at 1.45 a.m. and at 5.45 a.m.​
148. It notes that the two statements had originally been collected as part of the police's acquisition of summary information, a phase during which the applicant had not formally been subjected to investigations.​
149. As regards the statements taken at 1.45 a.m. , the Court reiterates that the guarantees afforded by Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 of the Convention apply to any " charged person " within the autonomous meaning of that term under the Convention. A " criminal charge " arises when a person is formally charged by the competent authorities or when the actions taken by those authorities in response to the suspicions against him have significant repercussions on his situation ( Simeonovi , cited above, §§ 110-111).​
150. Applying this principle to the present case, the Court therefore questions whether, at the time of the hearings, the domestic authorities had plausible reasons to suspect that the applicant was involved in the murder of MK.​
151. It notes in this regard that the applicant had already been interviewed by the police on 2, 3 and 4 November 2007 and that her phone had been tapped. It notes that it is also clear from the facts of the case that, on the evening of 5 November 2007, the investigators' attention was focused on the applicant (see paragraphs 12-14 above). It notes that, although the applicant had gone to the police station of her own accord, she was questioned in the corridor by police officers who then continued to question her in a room where she was subjected, on two occasions and for hours, to intensive interrogation.​
152. However, in the Court's view, even assuming that these elements are not sufficient to conclude that, at 1:45 a.m. on 6 November 2007, the applicant could be considered a suspect within the meaning of its case-law, it must be noted that, as the Government acknowledged, when she made her statements at 5:45 a.m. before the public prosecutor, the applicant had formally acquired the status of a person under investigation. The Court considers that there is therefore no doubt that, at 5:45 a.m. at the latest, the applicant was the subject of a criminal charge within the meaning of the Convention ( Ibrahim and Others , cited above, § 296). [bolding mine]​

You keep trying to pretend, like Mignini, that Knox technically wasn't a suspect, so she technically wasn't facing a criminal charge, and that therefore she technically wasn't required to have a lawyer. However, as the ECHR stated, and you either don't know, or pretend not to know, the Convention doesn't make exceptions for loopholes and technicalities. Knox was clearly entitled to a lawyer under the ECHR, regardless of whatever Italian law has to say on the matter, and the Italian authorities clearly violated her right to have one, your whining to the contrary notwithstanding. And if she had had a lawyer, and she had still made her statement, then there would have been no question that it was actually voluntary, as you like to keep claiming it was.


This issue was already discussed a few pages back and I have no desire to discuss it again. To recap, Numbers posted the ECHR legal definition of 'the charged/accused/defendant' and it was established that as of the time Knox made her claim she was under the category of ordinary witness.

See here from the Oct 2011 CoA judgement:

2. On the basis of the indictment (chapter F) of the heading), the slanderous accusations against Lumumba had been formulated through statements made by the interested party, at the Police Headquarters, in the early hours of 6 November 2007. Knox had been hired here for summary witness information, by the judicial police, at 1.45 a.m., and had therefore made spontaneous statements to the Public Prosecutor, at 5.45 a.m.

So you see, as we were discussing what ECHR meant by 'a charged person' and determined Knox was not charged, accused, a defendant, an official suspect until AFTER she accused Lumumba of murder and rape. ergo, it is a tautology for you to claim Knox was a charged person because the ECHR [mistakenly] refers to her as thus and it is also begging the question - a logical fallacy.


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I've had a listen, and this description of that recording is a fantasy. The voices are sometimes clear and sometimes mumbling. Sometimes in Italian and sometimes in English. Sometimes the voices raise slightly if they talk across each other, which sounds entirely natural and unforced. There are no "stage whispers" there playacting for some imagined eavesdropper who they guess might have bugged the room.

What an elaborate fantasy you weave.


I don't think you grasp the issue. Nothing to do with my opinion.



Napoleoni had been questioning Amanda about her friends and about Meredith's friends for half an hour when a colleague walked in to tell her that Raffaele was downstairs Raffaele was insistent, he said, that he should be allowed in to talk to his girlfriend. Napoleoni thought it odd that Raffaele should stick to Amanda so much they'd only known each other nine days. 'Maybe he's obsessed, she thought. Or perhaps what Amanda told the police mattered to him but if so, why? Napoleoni decided to let him, but only because she wanted to make the couple wait together in an office she had bugged.

At 4.30 p.m., Amanda and Raffaele were shown into the room; the microphone lay hidden in an open cardboard box on top of a cupboard. The microphone however picked up only part of their conversation they often dropped their voices and noise from a nearby fairground made it difficult to make out what they said.

Amanda talked to Raffaele about a friend she called 'Shaky' who had been 'sweet' in finding her work, then added that he was terrifying and crazy when he had to end a relationship with a girl. He harassed women and had once kept her in a room against her will.

Speaking to someone on her mobile, Amanda complained: 'I was the only one who was with her so they want to squeeze my brain to make me say things... They asked me to remember who came to the house, who met her. They asked me about her sex life and I said: "What? I don't know that." I'm feeling sick. They yelled at me. I slept only two hours last night [the word is unclear] under the sheet.' I saw the body'. ~ John Follain p. 119 Death in Perugia


This was 4 Nov 2007, the same time Dr Lalli was doing his post mortem. Not sure how Knox could have seen the body as she states, above, given she was standing well back when the door was kicked open and only authorised personnel were in attendance when the body was examined.

Are you saying John Follain, professional journalist, is a fantasist?
 
I sometimes wonder if guilters are on a mission to be as hypocritical as possible and they are taking part in a hypocrisy Olympics. This post makes a false claim that Hellman received a bribe to find Amanda and Raffaele not guilty. Amanda was viciously attacked for falsely accusing Lumumba and Vixen regards it as a serious issue and Amanda must pay damages to Lumumba. Guilters on the other hand can falsely accuse people of crimes without any repreccusions and regard it as a non issue. They viciously and obsessively attack Amanda for lying whilst spreading extremely malicious lies about people. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk why is it necessary to resort to making false accusations.


Nobody said he received a bribe, this was the talk going around Perugia amongst legal circles. Do read carefully.
 
Direct question, Vixen, and a much better example: Do you believe Cameron Todd WillinghamWP was guilty? And kindly don't evade the issue by claiming unfamiliarity with the case.

(Note: From now on, I'll be breaking all direct questions out as separate posts, in order to give you less of an opportunity to pretend not to notice them.)

I love how innocence campaigners use false equivalents, such as 'What about the Birmingham Six or Malkinson or the Guildford Four...?' and now we have Cameron Todd Willingham.

Okaaay. So that proves Knox and Sollecito were the victims of an unsafe verdict, too. Shocking!!!

Let's stick to empirical facts, and in this case, these will be facts found at trial. Facts that have been tested and tried and found on balance by the six permanent lay judges and two lead judges to be the facts preferred over those of the defence.

I know you said you don't do legal facts but I am not convinced there is any other fair method.



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If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk with solid evidence, why is it necessary for guilters to write nonsense about Mafia conspiracies etc.


Because corruption obviously happened given the facts that:

  • the burglary was staged. Ask yourself: who staged it and why would they?
  • Knox was at the cottage when Kercher was murdered. Why will she not admit it, what is there to hide?
  • Sollecito was almost certainly there, too and definitely there later.
  • Knox washed Kercher's blood from her hands. Mixed blood of Knox and victim on bathroom tap. Ask yourself, how long does it take for blood to stay wet enough to get mixed?
  • Knox informed police it was Lumumba to cover up for Guede. Why would she cover up for Guede?
How do Knox and Sollecito know it was Guede if they were not there?

Yes, I'd say slam dunk evidence, as close as we'll ever get.

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Vixen, can you

1. Quote and cite Marasca declaring Guede could scale the wall?
2. Provide evidence Kercher was 'lying on a sheet' used 'to move her 18 inches'?
3. Name the "seasoned detective" who claimed Kercher was 'lying on a sheet' used 'to move her 18 inches'?
4. Provide any evidence the UK climbing video was 'heavily doctored' by the defense?

You made all these claims but refuse to provide any evidence for them despite repeated requests. Why is that?
 
Vixen, can you

1. Quote and cite Marasca declaring Guede could scale the wall?
2. Provide evidence Kercher was 'lying on a sheet' used 'to move her 18 inches'?
3. Name the "seasoned detective" who claimed Kercher was 'lying on a sheet' used 'to move her 18 inches'?
4. Provide any evidence the UK climbing video was 'heavily doctored' by the defense?

You made all these claims but refuse to provide any evidence for them despite repeated requests. Why is that?

I already told you I was done discussing this topic with you for reasons already stated. I don't think you are actually interested in the answer or serious in your intentions so please do your own information gathering. Oh and please stop twisting my words and/or taking them out of context.


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