General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[webfusion]

In the instance brought to our attention above, that Arab minor in Jenin was allegedly shot while engaged in throwing a Molotov firebomb, not a 'rock' ----

As for the Jordan Valley, a lot of local sheepherders and nomadic Bedouins are leaving.
Yep, pack up your tents & shacks and camels and goats, and take a hike.

Also, Jenin is being cleared of that particular nest of vipers.

It's all coming together, bit by bit.
Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, they all are in flux regarding how to handle this HAMAS fiasco.
(and the ICC has just frozen itself regarding the accused Israelis, and there are no leading HAMAS guys left to arrest!)

While there are thousands of IDf reservists who are urging a "crushing action" to bring about HAMAS' surrender.

IDF reservists send letter demanding invasion of Gaza to finish Hamas | The Jerusalem Post

The forum of reservists said that Hamas can only be defeated by a sweeping and intense invasion of all of Gaza, using far more firepower.

www.jpost.com

 

[Planigale]

In the instance brought to our attention above, that Arab minor in Jenin was allegedly shot while engaged in throwing a Molotov firebomb, not a 'rock' ----

As for the Jordan Valley, a lot of local sheepherders and nomadic Bedouins are leaving.
Yep, pack up your tents & shacks and camels and goats, and take a hike.

Also, Jenin is being cleared of that particular nest of vipers.

It's all coming together, bit by bit.
Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, they all are in flux regarding how to handle this HAMAS fiasco.
(and the ICC has just frozen itself regarding the accused Israelis, and there are no leading HAMAS guys left to arrest!)

While there are thousands of IDf reservists who are urging a "crushing action" to bring about HAMAS' surrender.

IDF reservists send letter demanding invasion of Gaza to finish Hamas | The Jerusalem Post

The forum of reservists said that Hamas can only be defeated by a sweeping and intense invasion of all of Gaza, using far more firepower.

www.jpost.com

There is no allegedly about it. The child was shot in the abdomen by a member of the IDF and died. This has been admitted to by the IDF.

Can you reference your claim about the Molotov cocktail, and any evidence for this? I am a little surprised that the IDF haven't claimed he was part of a Hamas command and control unit since this seems to be the main excuse used for killing children. Without independent evidence I see no reason to believe the IDF who have an established track record of lying about the reason for killing unarmed Palestinians.

At least you are honest that you support terrorism and ethnic cleansing when the victims are Christians and Muslims and the perpetrators Jews.

 

[webfusion]

My sentence should have been read as follows: "was allegedly shot
while engaged in throwing a Molotov firebomb, not a 'rock'

The allegedly refers to the Molotov-cocktail, inter-alia, not that he was or wasn't shot.
I'm not going to waste a second on researching one particular Palestinian death or another.

I do support the defeat of Palestinian jihadism, and if that means clearing out various areas that are infested with them, then so be it. Romania is welcoming many of those Palestinians fleeing from their sinking ship.

Scope of Gazans fleeing the territory: 36 thousand have left so far to Hamas's dismay

Despite Hamas's efforts to prevent it, since the war began, over 36 thousand people have left the Gaza Strip, some through Israel to Jordan and other countries, others to Egypt.

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[Planigale]

My sentence should have been read as follows: "was allegedly shot
while engaged in throwing a Molotov firebomb, not a 'rock'

The allegedly refers to the Molotov-cocktail, inter-alia, not that he was or wasn't shot.
I'm not going to waste a second on researching one particular Palestinian death or another.

I do support the defeat of Palestinian jihadism, and if that means clearing out various areas that are infested with them, then so be it. Romania is welcoming many of those Palestinians fleeing from their sinking ship.

Scope of Gazans fleeing the territory: 36 thousand have left so far to Hamas's dismay

Despite Hamas's efforts to prevent it, since the war began, over 36 thousand people have left the Gaza Strip, some through Israel to Jordan and other countries, others to Egypt.

www.israelnationalnews.com

I think what would have been better written would have been 'was shot. The IDF allege whilst engaged in throwing a Molotov firebomb.'

I think your previous comments about eliminating Palestinians, and now referring to them as an infestation makes your attitude towards Christian and Muslims indigenous population clear.

I wonder where I can find previous examples of dehumanising particular ethnic groups?

Remember we are talking about the West bank not Gaza where the IDF are the occupying power, and are policing, not waging a war.

Israeli forces have killed 23 Palestinian children in the occupied West Bank in 2025, according to documentation collected by DCIP.

Under international law, intentional lethal force is only justified in circumstances where a direct threat to life or of serious injury is present. However, investigations and evidence collected by DCIP regularly suggest that Israeli forces use lethal force against Palestinian children in circumstances that may amount to extrajudicial or wilful killings.

In 2024, Israeli forces and settlers killed at least 93 Palestinian children in the occupied West Bank, according to documentation collected by DCIP. Israeli forces and settlers shot and killed 71 Palestinian children with live ammunition, 17 Palestinian children were killed in drone strikes, three Palestinian children were killed in an Israeli warplane airstrike, one child was killed by Israeli-fired ground shell, and one child was killed by unexploded ordnance (UXO) left behind by Israeli forces.

Israel admits shooting, killing Palestinian child in West Bank

The Israeli occupation army yesterday admitted its soldiers had killed a 12-year-old Palestinian boy in a town near Jenin, in the northern occupied West Bank, under the pretext that the...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

 

[webfusion]

I am clearly referring to the infestation of terrorist cadres. You know, those guys in HAMAS, PIJ, PFLP, PLO/Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade (AAMB), etc.
Not to all "ThePalestinians™" as an enthnicity (?) --- By the way, when did Palestinian Arabs become a distinct ethnic group?

How did you get from my exact words: "...the defeat of Palestinian jihadism, and if that means clearing out various areas that are infested with them (ed. - these jihadists) so be it..." to your interpretation of me saying "eliminating Palestinians" ? Very strange twisting of my statement, to put it mildly.

I want Palestinians to be our neighbors, in good faith, in peace, in cooperation, in confederation, in good relations.
To get from HERE to THERE, requires a dedicated effort to shepherd Palestinian society away from being hijacked into hell by these violent & armed Islamic Fundamentalist maniacs who insist on creating havoc.

That is my opinion.

 

[webfusion]

This is similar to what is envisioned for Gaza redevelopment, and Palestinians might wish to consider it.

An escape to Taba during troubled times

This Mövenpick Resort at the meeting point of four countries, with views of Jordan, Israel, and Saudi Arabia across the Red Sea, was full of surprises.

www.jpost.com

 

[webfusion]

BREAKING NEWS: 'Walking Barrages' have commenced in Gaza.

For the first time: IDF uses 'Bar' rocket in military operations

IDF troops conduct first operational use of 'Bar' rocket against terror targets in the Gaza Strip.

www.israelnationalnews.com

282nd Artillery Brigade, under the command of the 36th Division, has begun to operate in coordinated firing of artillery and BAR rockets. Rafah is being razed to the ground, and a million people in Gaza are preparing to move towards the gateway into Sinai.

Tick-Tock.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I want Palestinians to be our neighbors, in good faith, in peace, in cooperation, in confederation, in good relations.

Then get off their land and stop murdering them.

Your claim is patently false. See?

Rafah is being razed to the ground, and a million people in Gaza are preparing to move towards the gateway into Sinai.

Sinai is not Palestine. It's not your land, it is not theirs, either. You'd have to steal that, too, in order to see your plan through. Once again, Zionism and Zionists openly proclaim their thirst for property that is not theirs, for measures that run counter to law, for reasoning that directly and fundamentally contradicts the very international laws put in place to protect innocents from such treatment.

You know what your real logic is? Here:

• We, and we alone, are God's chosen.
• No one else is, nor ever will be, nor ever could be.
• We, and we alone, rule. We have all rights, you have absolutely none.
• Laws against genocide apply exclusively to racially and religiously superior Jews, the master race.
• (Besides, we wandered for 40 years in the itsy-bitsy Sinai to prove, um... that we are not lost?)
  
• God even told us we could clear the land using genocide. See that newborn child? It's god's enemy!
• That's what our god says, and believe me, he is ours alone. Hates you, by the way.
• Prepare to die, idol worshiper!

 

[d4m10n]

If these wretched victims of Israel's settler colonialism…

Given the geographical origins of Hebrew and Arabic langauge and culture, it's a little weird to say that Hebrew-speaking people are the colonizers whereas the Arabic-speaking people are indigenous to the region.

Put in terms of faith rather than language, was the Al-Aqsa mosque built on the ruins of an earlier religious site? Which one of those two religions was native to the region and which one was erected by colonizers from hundreds of miles away?

tl;dr – Zionism is a #LandBack movement.

 

[Hercules56]

Given the geographical origins of Hebrew and Arabic langauge and culture, it's a little weird to say that Hebrew-speaking people are the colonizers whereas the Arabic-speaking people are indigenous to the region.

Put in terms of faith rather than language, was the Al-Aqsa mosque built on the ruins of an earlier religious site? Which one of those two religions was native to the region and which one was erected by colonizers from hundreds of miles away?

tl;dr – Zionism is a #LandBack movement.

The Palestinian people aren't 50% from people from thousands of miles away including people descended from possible Converts

Genetic research is very clear that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews who make up at least 50% of Israeli population have genetics from people who are not semites. I should know I am one of them. My genetic report shows that the the people I am closest to genetically are other Ashkenazi Jews, followed by Italians. NOT other Middle Eastern people including Middle Eastern Jews.

This proves that me and most other Ashkenazi Jews are not purely descended from ancient Israelites and our claim to having a right to the land due to pure descent is bogus.

 

[d4m10n]

Genetic research is very clear that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews who make up at least 50% of Israeli population have genetics from people who are not semites.

I didn't mention genetics at all (largely b/c I don't believe in blood and soil^WP as justification worth mentioning) but since you want to go down that path, here you go:

Thread 'Palestinians descended from Jews?'

May 1, 2024

Came across a couple of fascinating passages in my reading today, both of which I would screenshot and insert if only I had the tools to make PNGs that small (kilobytes, not pixels).

Anyhow, here are the two quotes:

The local population in Palestine is racially more closely related to the Jews than to any other people, even among the Semitic ones. It is quite probable that the fellahin in Palestine are direct descendants of the Jewish and Canaanite rural population, with a slight admixture of Arab blood. For it is known that the Arabs, being proud conquerors, mingled very...​

• d4m10n
• Replies: 21
• Forum: History, Literature, and the Arts

See post #11 in particular, I took some effort to cobble together a colorful table which shows degree of relatedness of various subpopulations.

 

[Planigale]

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich

“We will end this campaign when Syria is dismantled, Hezbollah is severely beaten, Iran is stripped of its nuclear threat, Gaza is cleansed of Hamas and hundreds of thousands of Gazans are on their way out of it to other countries, our hostages are returned, some to their homes and some to the graves of Israel,”

So it will be a forever war, keeping Netanyahu in power. Making money for the arms industry. The current Israeli government has no desire for peace.

In just one week—between 20 and 26 April—Israel killed 345 Palestinians and injured 770 others, according to field data indicating that at least 94% of the victims were civilians. Children (51%), women (16%), and the elderly (8%) together accounted for 75% of those killed. Among the remaining victims (adult males), field verification confirmed that at least 63 of 81 worked in civilian jobs or independent professions unrelated to any militant or organisational activity, further reinforcing the predominantly civilian nature of the casualties.

Those who believe in a Greater Israel (including members of the current israeli government believe in an Israel that includes southern Lebanon and Syria, in addition to Gaza and the West Bank. So the war of expansion and ethnic cleansing will continue after Hams are 'defeated'. Let alone Israel's obsession with waging war on Iran.

94% of Palestinians killed in Gaza last week were civilians, rights group says

Entire families, including women and children, “are being killed at horrific rates” in Gaza, Euro-Med Monitor warned yesterday, adding that 94 per cent of Palestinians killed between 20-26 April we…

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Gen. Amir Avivi hinted at Israeli involvement in a recent chemicalstrike on Iranian rocket fuel, observing that “this attack was on fuel for ballistic rockets. So it makes sensethat this is a planned attack and not an accident.”

IDF general Amir Avivi says Iranian port blast was a planned attack | The Jerusalem Post

Gen. Amir Avivi hinted at Israeli involvement in a recent chemical strike on Iranian rocket fuel.

www.jpost.com

Increasingly non-Jewish Israelis are facing discrimination.

'Just a Warning Shot' |

Likud Official Backs Far-right Mob That Stormed Screening of Palestinian-Israeli Memorial Service​

Likud official backs mob that stormed Israeli-Palestinian memorial screening

Right-wing Activists Surrounded the Synagogue, Which Hosted a Screening of the Joint Israeli-Palestinian Event, Throwing Objects and Firecrackers. The Local Likud Branch Leader Backed the Attack: 'The City's Leftists - You've Been Warned'

www.haaretz.com

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Given the geographical origins of Hebrew and Arabic langauge and culture, it's a little weird to say that Hebrew-speaking people are the colonizers whereas the Arabic-speaking people are indigenous to the region.

Once again, "indigenous" refers to people continually residing in a given area and, in particular when referring to law, both historically and contemporaneously residing there at the time of any disputes over land, property or sovereignty. It is synonymous with "native", as in, "Palestinians are native to Palestine". Indigenous populations have a right to self-determination, not mitigated by the fact that there may be no clear ethnic majority, in which case, the right to self-determine applies to all in equal proportion. By any stretch, the right to self-determination, when applied to Palestine under British rule, pertains to the Palestinians living there at the time, as well as to those illegally and illegitimately displaced by force.

Of note: The Palestinian population did undertake uprisings against foreign immigrants pouring over their borders into their land in the 1930s, the latter claiming the land by right of force and by fiat. However, to object to and resist that was a legitimate right of the Palestinians, possessing as they did a preferential right to self-determination. Furthermore, there were no mass expulsions by means of terror attacks on civilian populations on a scale and severity comparable in any way to the Nakba, That distinction belongs to Zionists alone.

Foreign immigrants entering a given land after centuries of absence do not possess any preferential property or sovereignty rights; none. The only way in which a right to reside in Palestine applies to Israelis is as a function of having been successful in staying put long enough to have descendants with no other claim to a homeland, necessitating by mercy of law and morality their acceptance as legitimate residents.

Any other claim, such as one based on the myth of a divine promise, has the same standing as the Islamic Caliphate proclaimed by ISIS.

Put in terms of faith rather than language, was the Al-Aqsa mosque built on the ruins of an earlier religious site? Which one of those two religions was native to the region and which one was erected by colonizers from hundreds of miles away?

tl;dr – Zionism is a #LandBack movement.

Irrelevant, unless, of course, you wish to fully engage in archeology. That is when you will discover that Canaan does have a layered history going back millennia, with Judah only ever appearing temporarily as a decidedly minor player of little import to the dynasties of the time, disappearing by 400AD and remaining so until the 20th century. If you want historical fidelity, Canaan and its mix of local peoples with those from passing empires has the greatest claim to the land, and it is not a religious one.

 

[webfusion]

"The current Israeli government has no desire for peace." - Planigale's thesis

From what I'm seeing, the current Israeli government is doing plenty to achieve a lasting peace.
Taking care of business in Lebanon.
In Syria.
In Iran.
In the Hills and along the coastal salient, the IDF is making strides to pave the way for a peaceful outcome.

Our idea of peace and yours seem vastly different.
Ours doesn't place emphasis on having Islamic Jihadists in any sort of position to continue attacking us.
(and let's be clear, shall we? Islamic Jihadists have no interests in peaceful relations with Jewish Israel.)

Why do you want the Israeli arms industry to suffer? We have buyers, we have excellent weapons systems, we have motivated employees and investors, it's all good. Go tell the Chinese to dismantle THEIR arms industry, and then we'll talk.


By the way, that event in Ra'anana was designed to equally honor the dead HAMAS along with IDF fatalities.
Apparently, there is some major pushback among Israelis to that entire concept.
(The event went on as planned, by the way, despite the fracas in the streets).

I am curious, how does anyone know that 6% of the fatalities during April 20-26 in Gaza were HAMAS, and not more? I'm certainly not taking the word of HAMAS for that.
(and we don't know who the HAMAS guys were, since no information on their identities was provided by HAMAS.
The best we can do is make note of the fact that some high-value jihadists were eliminated.)

 

[Hercules56]

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich

So it will be a forever war, keeping Netanyahu in power. Making money for the arms industry. The current Israeli government has no desire for peace.

Those who believe in a Greater Israel (including members of the current israeli government believe in an Israel that includes southern Lebanon and Syria, in addition to Gaza and the West Bank. So the war of expansion and ethnic cleansing will continue after Hams are 'defeated'. Let alone Israel's obsession with waging war on Iran.

94% of Palestinians killed in Gaza last week were civilians, rights group says

Entire families, including women and children, “are being killed at horrific rates” in Gaza, Euro-Med Monitor warned yesterday, adding that 94 per cent of Palestinians killed between 20-26 April we…

www.middleeastmonitor.com

IDF general Amir Avivi says Iranian port blast was a planned attack | The Jerusalem Post

Gen. Amir Avivi hinted at Israeli involvement in a recent chemical strike on Iranian rocket fuel.

www.jpost.com

Increasingly non-Jewish Israelis are facing discrimination.

Likud official backs mob that stormed Israeli-Palestinian memorial screening

Right-wing Activists Surrounded the Synagogue, Which Hosted a Screening of the Joint Israeli-Palestinian Event, Throwing Objects and Firecrackers. The Local Likud Branch Leader Backed the Attack: 'The City's Leftists - You've Been Warned'

www.haaretz.com

These Judeo-Facists are more violent than the pro-Palestine protesters they have been attacking for the last two years. Ironic.

Smotrich? He is literally a Nazi with a kipa.

 

[d4m10n]

The Palestinian population did undertake uprisings against foreign immigrants pouring over their borders into their land in the 1930s, the latter claiming the land by right of force and by fiat.

Why did local authorities ban land sales to foreigners, if the land was being taken by force?

Why, for that matter, did the Jewish National Fund^WP even exist when the settlers could just acquire land for free, by force and fiat?

However, to object to and resist that was a legitimate right of the Palestinians, possessing as they did a preferential right to self-determination.

Rights are socially constructed and legally enforced, they don't exist in a Platonic realm of moral perfection.

When some given region is governed by an empire (e.g. Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, British) rights granted to people and peoples are whatever the foreign rulers say they are.

Furthermore, there were no mass expulsions by means of terror attacks on civilian populations on a scale and severity comparable in any way to the Nakba, That distinction belongs to Zionists alone.

"For the first time in 1000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible. [T]he systematic demolition inflicted merciless terror in the hearts of the Jews, killing both fighters and civilians."
— Abdullah al-Tal

As to scale, the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world^WP wasn't exactly small potatoes.

Foreign immigrants entering a given land after centuries of absence do not possess any preferential property or sovereignty rights; none.

Again, rights are what some given society says they are, not what we say they ought to have been. If the effendi didn't want Jews living amongst them, they shouldn't have profited off land sales (i.e. transfers of property rights) which they performed in secret while publicly condemning the practice.

The only way in which a right to reside in Palestine applies to Israelis is as a function of having been successful in staying put long enough to have descendants with no other claim to a homeland, necessitating by mercy of law and morality their acceptance as legitimate residents.

It's not really up to Anglophone residents of the free world to say which peoples are "legitimate residents" in other parts of the world, but if it were then I would favor need some sort of democratic process based on strong international consensus.

 

[Planigale]

"The current Israeli government has no desire for peace." - Planigale's thesis

From what I'm seeing, the current Israeli government is doing plenty to achieve a lasting peace.
Taking care of business in Lebanon.
In Syria.
In Iran.
In the Hills and along the coastal salient, the IDF is making strides to pave the way for a peaceful outcome.

Our idea of peace and yours seem vastly different.
Ours doesn't place emphasis on having Islamic Jihadists in any sort of position to continue attacking us.
(and let's be clear, shall we? Islamic Jihadists have no interests in peaceful relations with Jewish Israel.)

Why do you want the Israeli arms industry to suffer? We have buyers, we have excellent weapons systems, we have motivated employees and investors, it's all good. Go tell the Chinese to dismantle THEIR arms industry, and then we'll talk.


By the way, that event in Ra'anana was designed to equally honor the dead HAMAS along with IDF fatalities.
Apparently, there is some major pushback among Israelis to that entire concept.
(The event went on as planned, by the way, despite the fracas in the streets).

I am curious, how does anyone know that 6% of the fatalities during April 20-26 in Gaza were HAMAS, and not more? I'm certainly not taking the word of HAMAS for that. (and we don't know who the HAMAS guys were, since no information on their identities was provided by HAMAS. The best we can do is make note of the fact that some high-value jihadists were eliminated.)

I think the IDF make claims about the numbers of Hamas combatants killed. You do not seem so concerned with the reluctance of the IDF to name those killed so the role of Hamas combatant could be judged. Despite well documented evidence of IDF lying about killing combatants who later proved to be unarmed civilians why do you think the IDF are more reliable than Hamas? (Consistent evidence is that Hamas casualty figures are accurate.)

I object to all weapons manufacturing; I would be happy to see US, Ukraine, Russian, Chinese arms manufacturing decline.

 

[webfusion]

The IDF produces names of leading HAMAS figures who are no longer among the living.
That information isn't forthcoming from HAMAS.


Weapons will continue to be manufactured by everybody, and your 'objection' is noted.

The Oshkosh JLTV - Like an F-35 without wings

The Oshkosh JLTV, a next-gen military vehicle, combines advanced protection, mobility, and cutting-edge technology; with its imposing design and robust capabilities, it’s a game-changer for Israel's defense forces in the ongoing conflict

www.ynetnews.com

Just for a change of pace, here's a look at Israel from the air, stunning pics. Happy 77th!

Israel from above: Stunning aerial photos capture a country's beauty

From golden sunsets and Mediterranean shores to blooming fields, city skylines, desert vistas and agricultural groves, Israel’s story told from 10,000 feet up

www.ynetnews.com

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Refreshing change, perhaps; not my words. Good overview of Zionism by a Rabbi. Zionism, take note, is antisemitic.

Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro talks about his protest against Ben Gvir in front of the Israeli Consulate in New York and why he sees Zionism as the enemy of Judaism.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Israel starving Gazans, attacking relief ships in International Waters.
Now they are Pirates,too.