Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

It says more about where you like to hang out, if so many unpleasant people are around and no nice ones.

Translation: live in a richer area, you peasant.

I've been saying for a long time that there's a strong class element to this debate.

 

[Rolfe]

Translation: live in a richer area, you peasant.

I've been saying for a long time that there's a strong class element to this debate.

Actually, my most recent encounter with an entitled trans-identifying man was in the opera house in Glasgow. But the reason I know quite a few of them is that I frequent science fiction circles and conventions. There are also a few involved in the Scottish independence movement. Where I actually live, I only know about one transman, and a local friend has a very confused daughter who seems to have dialled back to non-binary.

 

[Thermal]

Translation: live in a richer area, you peasant.

I've been saying for a long time that there's a strong class element to this debate.

You got that last bit right. Not how you meant it of course, but stopped clocks and all.

 

[zooterkin]

As far as I can tell, accidentally ejecting masculine women from the women's restroom has never really been a problem that needs solving. If it ever was a problem, it seems that women got it sorted long ago.

Because, up till now, if they look sufficiently masculine, they've probably been using the male facilities. Now, it is clear they are not allowed to do that. (That said, if they continued to do so, I doubt anyone would complain.)

 

[theprestige]

Because, up till now, if they look sufficiently masculine, they've probably been using the male facilities. Now, it is clear they are not allowed to do that.

Please. Androgynes and butch lesbians have been using the ladies' since forever.

 

[zooterkin]

Please. Androgynes and butch lesbians have been using the ladies' since forever.

I'm not talking about them.

 

[Ziggurat]

You got that right. Not how you meant it of course, but stopped clocks and all.

Exactly how I meant it. You think the side that doesn't care about women being raped in prison is on the side of the lower class? ◊◊◊◊ no. That's the upper class. They don't care what happens to women in prison because only poor women end up there.

A lot of transpeople might be lower class, but the trans activists are overwhelming middle and upper class, almost entirely college educated and often with post graduate degrees as well. Like communism, you have to be educated into an idea as stupid as men becoming women or women becoming men.

 

[Rolfe]

As far as I can tell, accidentally ejecting masculine women from the women's restroom has never really been a problem that needs solving. If it ever was a problem, it seems that women got it sorted long ago.

It's also covered in the SC judgment.



If a transman is masculine enough, it's proportionate to exclude them from a female-only facility or group.

There has never been a problem simply with masculine-presenting women. They're women, they look like women, and if some short-sighted person makes a momentary mistake then the first words they speak reveal the reality. Then it's apologies and a bit of a laugh. Women do not approach someone they think is out of place in an aggressive manner. They usually start with "excuse me..."

 

[Rolfe]

Because, up till now, if they look sufficiently masculine, they've probably been using the male facilities. Now, it is clear they are not allowed to do that. (That said, if they continued to do so, I doubt anyone would complain.)

I think that's the subtext in the SC judgment. OK you're definitely not allowed to use the men's, but you're so masculine you can't use the women's... They'll be fine.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not talking about them.

Sure, but what's the difference? A masculine woman is a masculine woman. It's never been a problem before.

 

[Rolfe]

Sure, but what's the difference? A masculine woman is a masculine woman. It's never been a problem before.

There is a difference. When a woman has taken enough testosterone she becomes a lot more masculine than any woman is naturally.

 

[Mycroft]

Either the male right or to override sex segregation whenever he wants is there, or it isn't. You can't pick and choose when to recognize it - not without a good explanation for the inconsistency.

The good explanation would be trans-athletes perform differently from cis-athletes.

Everyone poops the same.

 

[Mycroft]

Maybe you want to take a close look at the "actions" of trans-rights activists in the recent protests in the UK.

Death threats
Defacing statues
Urinating in the streets

When they show you exactly who they are.. believe them!

Again, if we don't like the tactics used by Antifa, should we embrace fascism?

You're citing quora? Really?

Quora is just as much a cesspool as is the rest of the internet, but I think it can be a useful barometer on some issues.

 

[angrysoba]

The good explanation would be trans-athletes perform differently from cis-athletes.

Everyone poops the same.

I think “perform differently” is the issue, right?

If they have an advantage, then obviously women athletes will be disadvantaged. That’s a corollary.

 

[Mycroft]

As far as I can tell, accidentally ejecting masculine women from the women's restroom has never really been a problem that needs solving. If it ever was a problem, it seems that women got it sorted long ago.

...because the reality is nobody is so certain a masculine woman isn't a cis-woman they would dare to try to evict them.

 

[Mycroft]

Can you imagine a scenario where a male might be willing to put on some lipstick, a pink shirt, and shave, then go into the female restroom because they get off on listening to females urinate, or they're turned on by being in a place where females have their pants down on the other side of a simple barrier, or they want to place a hidden camera and get a sneaky peak at a female's nether regions without consent, or they find it titillating to masturbate in the stall next to females, or any number of other deviant behaviors?

Does putting on lipstick and a pink shirt and saying "I'm trans" make them a real transgender identified male, or are they a liar?

Alternatively, do you believe that it's perfectly acceptable for a male to engage in such behaviors without consent?

Shaving, putting on lipstick and a pink shirt is a little more effort than just saying they're trans, but if they're not willing to wear the lipstick and pink shirt other than to visit a public women's restroom, I think it would be easy to conclude they are not sincere.

 

[Mycroft]

No.

Then the answer is no.

 

[Mycroft]

It's entirely trivial as long as you continue to dodge providing a basis for how much you think is necessary in order to support one's assertion.

Previously when I brought up clothing I was told by more than one person that men's/women's clothing didn't exist.

So I'm bringing up clothing again. For like the 20th time, if not more.

Do you require a formal diagnosis and active treatment? Or is putting on lipstick and nail polish enough? Do you require surgery? Or just hormones? Do you the donning of stereotyped clothing?

You've listed several options here that go way beyond self-ID.

Where do YOU think that middle ground is?

Again, you list elements of this middle-ground. I don't need to pick a specific spot to point out the territory exists.

 

[Mycroft]

You speak as though gender dysphoria is evidence of souls. It's a magical inner essence that grants the chosen one the soul of the opposite sex through the transformative power of faith. Anyone who disagrees is seemingly a heretic.

Wow! That's a huge extrapolation.

One I do not endorse.

 

[Mycroft]

I suppose they could be forbidden as a condition of parole but that's besides the point. I'm just trying to get self-id advocates to grasp the implications of their position.

Who are the self-ID advocates participating in this thread right now?