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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Thermal said:
Word.

If you can't detect a problem, there probably isn't one. This guy had a phone out and recording in rest rooms and changing rooms, and freaking pen cameras strapped to his shoes. His pervy behavior would get him acted on in the same nanosecond, no matter what the trans policy is.

if you can't tell, it doesn't matter. That's the entire point, by the way.
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You misunderstand. We're talking about how you distinguish between the obvious male predator in drag and the obvious male sincere dysphoric.
 
We're talking about how, when men in women's clothes are not allowed in the women's room, the minute one appears we can alert security. Whereas if they are allowed, there's bugger-all we can do to stop this.

Fortunately this is no longer going to happen in a country near me. Once we've worked through the inevitable lawsuits to force the recalcitrant into compliance.
 
theprestige said:
My view is, no diagnosis, no trans.

Saying you identify as a woman and want to caucus with the women is just self-ID, and a complete non-starter for me.

But you haven't actually answered my question about definitions. I gave you my definition as a show of good faith and engagement, not to sidetrack you from giving your own definition.
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Apologies. You ask what a transwoman is, and what they are entitled to, correct?

A transwoman is a dude that identifies as a woman (going to use 'he' consistently to avoid confusion). Or he believes that that is what he is, or however you want to say it. It's what he believes himself to *be*, not think is something exotic or erotic. It should be a fairly neutral feeling. If it gets him hard, he's got a different gig going on.

I have no external paper bag test for him, although I'd expect him to emulate the women around him (he identifies with them, so it should follow pretty naturally). He might be OK with his born body, he might not, and want to go through trans sexual surgeries, or be ok with what God gave him.

He should not be allowed where nudity can be expected, because we have a long standing cultural expectation of keeping ya package under wraps in mixed company. An exception is made for same sex showers and lockers, out of practicality and a long tradition of comfort with nudity with your same sex. The transperson doesn't get to jump that line, though, because they are not the same sex and dont fit that exemption.

Prisons, maybe. A small, frail, surgically transitioned transwoman locked up for a bag of pot might quite rightly believe themselves at extraordinary threat of rape by male inmates, and off to the female prison. A burly rapist transwoman, nah. Sorry Charlie, you pose a bigger physical threat to the women.

Sports, sex segregated due to male biological advantage that would effectively eliminate female competitors.

Restrooms, I'm still working on.

Answered satisfactorily, at least for now?
 
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theprestige said:
You misunderstand. We're talking about how you distinguish between the obvious male predator in drag and the obvious male sincere dysphoric.
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I understand perfectly. I understood the distinction the first thousand times it was made. We are talking about this guy, not some hypothetical. So tell me:

What did he do that a transwoman would have gotten away with, or a natal woman, or a straight up dude for that matter? His actions brought alarm and criminal charges, no
matter what the trans policy.

So which variation of policy would have made any difference at all to what he did and how it was resolved? Why the hell would it matter what you could identify him as?
 
This, like the debate against women's birth control, is all about society limiting the rights of others. IMV, society must clear a very high bar when it does that. Satisfying the wants and desires of the majority does not justify restricting the rights of the minority.

We have no business telling a woman what a woman can or can't do with their body. Ever. And modesty, dignity and propriety doesn't justify it. Ever. There was a time when women were denied birth control because of propriety and dignity. It wasn't proper or dignified for an unmarried woman to have sex. And according to the Catholic Church, it isn't proper or dignified for a woman or a man to use birth control. Propriety and dignity is just the norms of the majority.

And I don't see how a man in the bathroom infringes your modesty. If he/she forces open the stall your in...sure, the complaint has merit. Or if he drops trou in the general area, the complaint has merit. (BTW, there are laws against the latter. IE: Indecent exposure.)

Finally, I don't care about your religion. Whether that be Christian, Muslim or VooDoo. You're entitled to believe whatever fairy tale you want. And the government should never infringe on that right. But that doesn't mean the government is required to accommodate your beliefs in that fairy tale. So I don't give a damn about Muslim women's concerns about a man in a public restroom. Their mosque is a different issue.
 
acbytesla said:
This, like the debate against women's birth control, is all about society limiting the rights of others.
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What rights, specifically, are you talking about?

From where I stand, it seems like the right being debated is the right of men to override sex segregation whenever they want. I don't think that's a right. Do you?

Do you have some other right in mind?
 
theprestige said:
What rights, specifically, are you talking about?

From where I stand, it seems like the right being debated is the right of men to override sex segregation whenever they want. I don't think that's a right. Do you?

Do you have some other right in mind?
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No, it is enforcing segregation.
 
Thermal said:
Apologies. You ask what a transwoman is, and what they are entitled to, correct?

A transwoman is a dude that identifies as a woman (going to use 'he' consistently to avoid confusion). Or he believes that that is what he is, or however you want to say it. It's what he believes himself to *be*, not think is something exotic or erotic. It should be a fairly neutral feeling. If it gets him hard, he's got a different gig going on.

I have no external paper bag test for him, although I'd expect him to emulate the women around him (he identifies with them, so it should follow pretty naturally). He might be OK with his born body, he might not, and want to go through trans sexual surgeries, or be ok with what God gave him.

He should not be allowed where nudity can be expected, because we have a long standing cultural expectation of keeping ya package under wraps in mixed company. An exception is made for same sex showers and lockers, out of practicality and a long tradition of comfort with nudity with your same sex. The transperson doesn't get to jump that line, though, because they are not the same sex and dont fit that exemption.

Prisons, maybe. A small, frail, surgically transitioned transwoman locked up for a bag of pot might quite rightly believe themselves at extraordinary threat of rape by male inmates, and off to the female prison. A burly rapist transwoman, nah. Sorry Charlie, you pose a bigger physical threat to the women.

Sports, sex segregated due to male biological advantage that would effectively eliminate female competitors.

Restrooms, I'm still working on.

Answered satisfactorily, at least for now?
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There are many vulnerable male prisoners. Young ones, old ones, gay ones, disabled ones, small and frail ones. We don't give any of these a free pass to bunk up with the women. They are safeguarded while remaining in the male estate. So should every vulnerable male prisoner be.
 
Rolfe said:
There are many vulnerable male prisoners. Young ones, old ones, gay ones, disabled ones, small and frail ones. We don't give any of these a free pass to bunk up with the women.
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Probably because, unlike a transwoman, they do not identify as women, yes.
Rolfe said:
They are safeguarded while remaining in the male estate. So should every vulnerable male prisoner be.
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So should they, yes. They aren't, and they simply don't make enough facilities to protect everyone. A transwoman is uniquely vulnerable, though, especially if transitioned. The prison is in the weird position of having to decide which is safer across the board for all involved.
 
Rolfe said:
Segregation is absolutely fine if it is a proportionate means to a legitimate goal. Having separate male and female sanitary, changing and sleeping accommodation is a legitimate goal.
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What legitimate goal does restroom segregation perform? Because propriety, dignity and modesty ain't it.
 
Thermal said:
Probably because, unlike a transwoman, they do not identify as women, yes.

So should they, yes. They aren't, and they simply don't make enough facilities to protect everyone. A transwoman is uniquely vulnerable, though, especially if transitioned. The prison is in the weird position of having to decide which is safer across the board for all involved.
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No, he is not uniquely vulnerable. If your prison system is in such a mess, it's even more vital that you don't put disturbed and delusional men in with women.
 
Rolfe said:
No, he is not uniquely vulnerable
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Give me a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ break. A transitioned transwoman is an all you can eat buffet in a male prison.
Rolfe said:
. If your prison system is in such a mess, it's even more vital that you don't put disturbed and delusional men in with women.
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There it is. Not even an attempt to hide it anymore.
 
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Thermal said:
It would be a screaming good idea to get some kind of glossary together so readers of the thread who aren't hip to the lingerie can reference it. Maybe pick a post with a nice round number (easy to remember) and drop a glossary, which readers can be directed towards?
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Not necessarily a bad idea. I was actually noodling around a similar idea late yesterday. I need to figure out if my sig line can include a link to a post.
 
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