Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Mycroft]

Ok. Then where in that middle should we land? You seem unwilling to say.

Let's see you list the criteria you use to tell men from women. You said it would be easy, but you're unwilling to give an answer.

 

[Mycroft]

Sure thing.

Okay, I would tell you not to create a scene.

 

[Mycroft]

Exactly, becaseu that is all there is. Black/White dichotomy is precisely that which applies to sex...there are no other sexes than biological male and biological female

Because black/white is easy, nuance is hard.

Why does paranoid schizophrenia exist? Why does bipolar disorder exists? And gender dysphoria? I don't know why they exist any more than you or anyone else does. What I do know is that they are mental disorders, and as such, they need to be treated, not celebrated.

Would you agree these conditions probably originate in the brain?

 

[theprestige]

I disagree. I think conflating trans-people with a handful of scary trans-people

But that's a strawman, as I just explained.

is exactly the same kind of bigotry as those others I mentioned.

It's not, though. Judging the Catholic church because it covers up for sexual predators is analogous to judging the trans rights movement for enabling predators. It is not analogous to judging all people who suffer from gender dysphoria based on a few predators. You're conflating the two things, and trying to accuse me of both.

Well, maybe "accuse" is the wrong word, since the first thing is entirely reasonable to do. But you're definitely trying to accuse me of the second thing, and that's a false accusation.

 

[theprestige]

And if someone disagrees?

Then we have two standards, and eventually reach some kind of consensus or detente about which standard gets used where.

That is, of course, if the disagreer actually deigns to come up with a standard of their own, rather than refusing to offer anything constructive at all. In that case, we just end up with one standard, and everybody more or less sticks to it.

Which is actually kind of what we're getting right now, when it comes to trans identification in public policy. After years of pressing equivocation, obfuscation, and outright fabrication, rather than clear and comprehensible definitions and standards, the TRAs are finally seeing the tide turn against them: Biological sex is the criteria. It's case law and legal precedent in the UK, now. It's the regulatory standard by executive fiat at the federal level in the US. Medical and government institutions are slowly backing away from trans-affirming treatment for minors, which hews back to biological essentialism and the high costs of ill-advised tinkering with biological development. Hopefully the trend continues in this direction.

This TRA game of equivocation, obfuscation, and fabrication was already old and busted before you sailed into this thread to try it on.

 

[Ziggurat]

Let's see you list the criteria you use to tell men from women.

No. You first. I've answered enough of your questions, it's time you start answering some.

 

[Trausti]

Impossible to tell.

 

[Mycroft]

No. You first. I've answered enough of your questions, it's time you start answering some.

Meh, I'm tired of your directives.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not like they are getting made to. You openly LOLed at transwomen who want to help at rape centers (I have a hard time condemning such workers) being labeled "weirdos".

I have a problem with transgender identified males who want to help at rape centers while simultaneously insisting that they must be accepted as "women". I don't necessarily have a problem with males helping at rape centers while acknowledging that they're male, and understanding that there are going to be circumstances where the fact of their maleness is going to be a barrier that makes the female victims uncomfortable, and may make them feel unsafe.

What we've seen (more than once) is males with a transgender identity insisting that the rape victims are transphobic bigots when those victims don't want to share intimate details of their rape with a male. They insist that they're "just as much of a woman" as the victims are, and demand that the female victims should set aside their "bigotry" and allow themselves to be treated by them, because failure of the victim to recognize the transgender identified male's "womanness" is an affront to the male.

The essentially place their own need for emotional validation above the needs of the victims. And that's a problem for me.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know a lot about rape victims and who they want to be counseled by. My only experience was in getting a couple to the hospital when on the Rescue Squad. One was in I guess her late teens, and held on to me pretty tight till we got her to the ER. She was female. I was male. I think people are a lot smarter than you imagine, and know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Where do you get this comic book perception of people?

There's a really big difference between you being the dude who gets the victim to the ER and is essentially protecting them... and you being the dude who is literally staring at their recently violated private parts and taking samples... or you being the dude to whom they are having to recount the actual steps in the rape and all the gory details.

You understand that, don't you?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Dolezal wears literal blackface, man.

Mulvaney wears literal womanface.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We weren't talking about how an outside observer could tell. We were talking about if it was possible. Do you think it would be possible for Bob to lie? Ziggurat doesn't.

You're mixing perspectives.

We all - even Ziggurat - know that it's entirely possible for Bob to lie. Most of us also acknowledge that for some Bobs, Bob has an incentive to lie because it gets them access to the people they want to perv on without consent (at a minimum).

To Zig's point, however.... there's literally no way for anyone to prove that Bob has lied, and under the way that activists defined and want self-id policy to be admitted, there's no recourse for anyone to even challenge Bob's assertion and claim that Bob is lying.

Because it's 100% absolutely impossible to verify Bob's truthfulness or lack thereof when the only thing anyone ever has is that Bob said the magic words. Nobody anywhere has any way to challenge whether or not Bob actually for realsies believes what Bob says they believe.

If I tell you "I believe in aliens" is there any way at all for you to tell whether I'm being honest or whether I'm lying?

 

[Ziggurat]

Meh, I'm tired of your directives.

And I'm tired of your evasions.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're going to need to notify a lot of people, States, and courts about that. They don't know.

That segregation has been based on sex since they were first instituted. They were never based on whether or not any given person has gendery feels, or has a particular affinity with some style of clothing, or whether they feel alignment with a set of regressive social stereotypes.

You know it, I know, everyone including the courts know it.

But they've taken part in this humpty-dumpty game of retconning a 5-minute old solipsistic meaning of the term "woman" into something that has always been understood to mean sex.

Don't play their game.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If Bryson is necessary to make policy concerning all trans-people, then he represents all trans-people.

How dare you misgender Bryson, you transphobe!

 

[Emily's Cat]

We can look to someone's actions to tell if they're lying. Being trans doesn't change that.

How do you tell whether someone who claims to be trans is lying or not? What actions make their belief that their internal sense of self is that of the opposite sex?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are the boobs bolted on when cis-women get them?

Yep.

If you're going to use diminutive terms like this, you're going to get ignored. If you have something worth saying, you can find respectful ways of saying it. This isn't a hate-trans forum where people share yuks at trans-people's expense.

Seriously, you're going to have a tantrum because I used the extremely common "bolted on boobs" which in actual usage DOES apply to breast implants on females too... and as a result of your disingenuous flouncing, you're going to ignore the entire rest of my post?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Any of them is far more than self-ID. The very existence of these options demonstrates that there is a lot more than the extremes of self-ID and ...measuring hip bones?

Such as? Can you provide some examples?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No effort other than self-ID.



Then please stop talking about self-ID.



Yep, you have correctly identified problems with self-ID.



You came up with a list of options earlier. Emily’s Cat just did too. Why are you pretending these options don’t exist?

Self ID comes up because... drum roll... SELF-ID IS THE POLICY THAT TRANSGENDER ADVOCATES AND ACTIVISTS ARE PUSHING.

Up until last week, that was the policy that a large chunk of UK assumed was the law of the land - that anyone who self-declares themselves to be a "woman" without any meaningful or objective definition of what "woman" is, has right-of-access to all female single-sex spaces and cannot be denied the use of them.

That is the policy that they want. That is the policy we're fighting against.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What feminine traits belong to all women? None? What masculine traits belong to all men? None?

The feminine traits that belong to all women is a FEMALE BODY AND A REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM THAT DEVELOPED ALONG THE MULLERIAN PATH.