Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

It's not hard at all. The distinction is somewhat arbitrary, but it's really very easy to do. Trivial, even.

And arbitrary is functionally worthless. If it's arbitrary, you might have it somewhere over on the green side. So yeah, easy, but solving nothing.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not reluctant, and have answered. You don't restrict him in any other way than you restrict any other violent criminal. If that means he is allowed in the women's room, so be it.

But that's precisely the question, and you STILL won't answer it. Should he be allowed in? Whether that's in any way dependent upon his criminal history is up to you. But I still don't know whether or not you think he should be allowed in. Not whether his is allowed in, whether he should be. Your answer doesn't have to depend upon his criminal history if you don't want it to be, but you should still be able to come up with an answer.

Why can't you?

 

[Ziggurat]

And arbitrary is functionally worthless. If it's arbitrary, you might have it somewhere over on the green side. So yeah, easy, but solving nothing.

Did you miss the word "somewhat"? Because you seem to have. Give it another try, and don't ignore that word this time.

 

[Thermal]

We don't make that assumption, Mycroft. YOU are making this assumption, but WE aren't. We're assuming that only FEMALES are allowed in the woman's room, and MALES are allowed in the men's room.

Gender identify (or lack thereof) is entirely irrelevant to this position.

Not true. Your side, with virtually one voice, has acknowledged that the opposite bio sex goes through sometimes without issue. I do, too.

 

[Emily's Cat]

How do you tell?

Oh good gravy.

I believe you mentioned that you're heterosexual. So... how do you tell which people are in your pool of potential sex partners and which aren't? Not which you find attractive, or which you think you have a shot with, or even if you have any interest in having sex with them. How do you tell which ones you're sexually oriented toward?

If you see a male-shaped person with beard stubble and a square jaw, but they're wearing a dress and heels, are you actually confused about whether or not they're of the sex that you're generally attracted to?

 

[Ziggurat]

And if someone disagrees?

Then you can argue about which dividing line is better. But it's stupid to claim that you can't draw a dividing line at all, or that it's difficult to do when it's practically the easiest thing in the world. And it's also stupid to argue against someone else's dividing line when you're not willing to draw one of your own.

 

[smartcooky]

Because it's hard to distinguish exactly where orange becomes yellow on the colour wheel, the concepts of orange and yellow are invalidated.

You're talking in riddles.

The transition from orange to yellow can be difficult to determine because they are colours on a continuous spectrum. But this does NOT apply to biological sex, which is NOT on any kind of spectrum... this is an irrefutable scientific fact. It is objective, observable reality.

In all humans, all mammals. and indeed, most species of animals, there are biological males, and there are biological females. There are no other biological sexes. Even people who have DSD (who are often erroneously referred to as "intersex") are still provably either biologically male, or biologically female.

People who push the "sex is a spectrum" nonsense do so because they need to in order to argue for their position. TRAs are trying to rewrite science, and redfine words to mean what they want them to mean, rather than what they correctly and actually mean. The "sex is a spectrum" nonsense is anti-science - if this is what you beleive, then you also have an anti-science worldview, which is probably why you also mistakenly believe that transwomen are women. In the UK, it is clear that they are not. The tide has been turning on this partuclar section of anti-science thinking, and that turning has accelerated considerably with the recent SCOTUK ruling. I expect this will continue as the world continues to back away from the madness.

 

[Thermal]

But that's precisely the question, and you STILL won't answer it. Should he be allowed in? Whether that's in any way dependent upon his criminal history is up to you. But I still don't know whether or not you think he should be allowed in. Not whether his is allowed in, whether he should be. Your answer doesn't have to depend upon his criminal history if you don't want it to be, but you should still be able to come up with an answer.

Why can't you?

Why are you pretending I haven't answered it? Yes, he has the legal right to, as is. *Should* he in some partially undisclosed fantasy world scenario? Probably, yeah. His crimes don't seem any different than a woman who has commited violent crimes against other women. Y'all ain't kicking them out, either.

 

[Thermal]

You're talking in riddles.

The transition from orange to yellow is can be difficult to determine because they are colours on a continuous spectrum. But this does NOT apply to biological sex, which is NOT on any kind of spectrum.

Unlike gender, which very much is on a spectrum, and is largely the thread topic here.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm a male, but I don't want to use the woman's bathroom.

I'm a male, and I do want to use the women's bathroom, but only because it has a comfy couch and I stand up almost all day.

What argument, if any, would you use to convince me to stay out?

Would the argument still apply if I woke up tomorrow with a profound sense that I ought to become a woman?

 

[Thermal]

Did you miss the word "somewhat"? Because you seem to have. Give it another try, and don't ignore that word this time.

It changes nothing, but ok, green is obvious hyperbole. But ballpark is ballpark.

 

[Mycroft]

If you see a male-shaped person with beard stubble and a square jaw, but they're wearing a dress and heels, are you actually confused about whether or not they're of the sex that you're generally attracted to?

I've met some women with profoundly square jaws and even some stubble, so this metric is invalid.

What exactly is "male shaped"? Children tend to be shaped the same regardless of gender, and elderly people tend to grow into similar shapes too. Even in between, out of 8 billion people in this planet there is a lot of overlap, people come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

Am I confused about the gender I'm attracted to? Of course not, I ask the question for the same reasons Zig and others ask what criteria I would use to determine how sincere a trans-person is in their transition.

Also, I'm not attracted to all women. Not even most women.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why are you pretending I haven't answered it? Yes, he has the legal right to, as is.

That is an answer to a question I didn't ask

*Should* he in some partially undisclosed fantasy world scenario?

Should he in this world

Probably, yeah. His crimes don't seem any different than a woman who has commited violent crimes against other women. Y'all ain't kicking them out, either.

We're kicking out the men, though. So what's the basis for allowing Bryson? Unlike women criminals, it cannot be on the basis that he's female. Is it on the basis that he claims to be trans? Is that enough?

You say you don't support self ID, but I'm struggling to see how your preference is different. Please, explain.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ok, but we do acknowledge gender dysphoria as a recognizable condition. There's an area of the brain that corresponds with that specific ID.

That's not actually true. There's no part of the brain that corresponds with gender identity, nor with gender dysphoria.

There *is* a part of the brain that correlates with *self perception*. Self perception is not the same as identity. It's actually genuinely associated with how we perceive our physical presence in the world around us. It includes proprioception. This particular part of the brain having crossed wires is associated with anorexia and with body integrity identity disorder. There are some few people who are considered transsexual, who have aberrant activity in that part of the brain, indicating that their brain is incorrectly translating information about their physical bodies.

The overwhelming majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do NOT have unusual activity in that part of the brain - they perceive themselves and their bodies perfectly fine, they just wish they were different. In the same way that I deeply wish I were size inches taller, or that I were 20 lbs lighter. I have a mirror and a properly functioning mind - I perceive the reality that I'm short and overweight. My brain doesn't perceive myself wrongly - there's no contradiction between the evidence of my eyes and the interpretation of my mind.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm a male, and I do want to use the women's bathroom, but only because it has a comfy couch and I stand up almost all day.

What argument, if any, would you use to convince me to stay out?

Honestly? If we were at a bar together I'd sit back and watch how things played out for you.

Would the argument still apply if I woke up tomorrow with a profound sense that I ought to become a woman?

How profound is this feeling? What are you willing to do for it?

 

[Mycroft]

The transition from orange to yellow is can be difficult to determine because they are colours on a continuous spectrum. But this does NOT apply to biological sex, which is NOT on any kind of spectrum... this is an irrefutable scientific fact. It is objective, observable reality.

This black/white dichotomy is precisely why you insist on sex and not gender.

Why do you think gender dysphoria exists? Do you think it's real or just made up?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Jesus christ dude, you almost have it. You're like thiiiiiiiis close.

You are trying to get an outside, objective standard. There really can't be one, as it's an internal sense. That's what self ID means. Only you can really know. But you can absolutely misrepresent that self ID for nefarious purposes. That's where you are dropping the ball, and insisting that it is reeeeeaaally a self assertion, which is different. I can self assert that I am a ferret, but that's a lie. I do not identify as a ferret. SO I CANNOT SELF ID AS A FERRET WITHOUT LYING.

You're not wrong, Thermal - but you are missing the other side of that.

If you self assert that you're a ferret the only person who knows you're lying is you. It's impossible for anyone else to know whether you're lying or not - it's unverifiable, and entirely subjective.

Now take the next step from this: Activists for transgender rights want public policy and law to be based on self-id. But nobody can actually know their id for real except the individual. So the effect is that they're demanding that policy be based on self-assertion.

This means that anyone who says they're a ferret gets to play in the ball bit, even if they're observably a 6'6" dude that squashes the balls.

 

[d4m10n]

Unlike gender, which very much is on a spectrum, and is largely the thread topic here.

It's easy enough to see that gender expression is on a spectrum (running from very feminine attire and accessories almost never worn by males on the pink end to very masculine attire and accessories almost never worn by females on the blue end) but is that what you meant or did you mean gender identity instead?

 

[d4m10n]

Honestly? If we were at a bar together I'd sit back and watch how things played out for you.

You don't have any argument for segregation by natal sex or gender identity or anything else.

That's odd, considering the amount of keystrokes you've already tapped out on this subtopic.

 

[Mycroft]

...they just wish they were different. In the same way that I deeply wish I were size inches taller, or that I were 20 lbs lighter. I have a mirror and a properly functioning mind - I perceive the reality that I'm short and overweight.

I remember earlier you proclaiming not to be a mind-reader. How can you make these assertions?