Rolfe
Adult human female
You don't really think that though. Every post you make is brimming with unkindness and inhumanity to people you disagree with.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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OF course I thought it through. What did I say was incorrect?
acbytesla
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I don't know. But it is estimated that 1.5 % percent or more of the population has some intersex condition. That equates to the population of Russia. I guess these people don't exist. Or you think you should stick them in the box you decided for them. And screw them if they don't follow your instructions.
I'm still confused.
Do you think transwomen without penis or testicles should use the men's facilities?
Well, first of all, intersex is a completely separate condition from being trans. Secondly, that 1.5%, or 1.7% seen elsewhere, is including conditions that are only vaguely related, a more accurate percentage is .018%. Thirdly, while XX and XY cover most of the population, there are technical definitions that do pretty much cover everyone (based on specific genes operating, for example).
How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed
Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Hercules56
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I truly look forward to the US supreme Court deciding that allowing biological males into women's changing rooms and bathrooms violate the Civil Rights Act and must stop.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I certainly don't want to know what sort of genital configuration they have. Why would I?
I didn't write the Supreme Court judgement. (I couldn't have done such a brilliant job on a bet.) The Supreme Court has come to that decision. It just so happens that I agree with them. 100% wholeheartedly
Why? Because the idea of having to inspect what's in a man's pants to see if he's entitled to be in a women-only space is not one that attracts me. Why would you think it would? I also don't want to ask him for a certificate that says he's had his dangly bits removed. That's embarrassing too. And certificates can be easily faked. The Supreme Court understood this perfectly well. Men are men, and remain men whether or not they have a piece of paper called a GRA, and whether or not they have had cosmetic surgery. If any of them are allowed into what was a female-only space, it is no longer female-only, it is mixed space. And as a matter of law, that means that no man can be refused entry.
It's logical in the legal sense, because legally trans-identifying men are men and have to go with other men in order to preserve the integrity of female-only spaces. Because you can't discriminate between one sort of man and another; if you let one sort in you have to let them all in. It's also logical in the practical sense, because it avoids any embarrassing "genital inspections" and any "papers please". You're male, you go where the male people go.
I don't understand why you're confused. Can you tell by looking at a man with his clothes on (whether or not he's wearing a frock or makeup or long hair) whether he has a penis and testicles or not? I can't.
This is generally the point where the handmaidens bleat, "So what are these poor vulnerable marginalised flowers supposed to do?" The first answer to this is, it's not women's problem to solve. Women's spaces are not therapy for misfit men. The second answer is, understand that these people are widening the bandwidth of what it means to be male. Everybody and his budgie can tell they're male, without requiring them to do a striptease. Men's toilets have cubicles, so a man who either can't or doesn't want to use the urinals can simply use a cubicle. Men need to be welcoming to their gender-nonconforming brothers.
And if they don't like this, start a campaign for an additional fully-enclosed unisex toilet to be provided. Women's spaces are, thankfully, no longer open for negotiation.
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I thought you might have some compassion for surgically altered transwomen who fear using the men's facilities.
Brainster
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How (practically) can anybody tell that they don't have a penis or testicles? I can tell you from being in a lot of men's rooms that you almost never see anybody else's dick (except where the facility uses a trough for the urinal); I would assume that women see each other's parts in the women's room even less often. All they have to go by is outward appearance.
Like Thermal, I don't particularly care if a transwoman wants to use the restroom alongside me. Unlike him, I don't presume women do or should feel the same way.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
Why would they fear such a thing? It's ludicrous. What are they afraid of? They're men. Everyone can see they're male. Men's facilities have cubicles. What is the problem that is specifically introduced by them having had this surgery?
Rolfe
Adult human female
I thought we'd shredded this rubbish so often already that we wouldn't have to do it again. But apparently not.
First, this 1.5% nonsense is achieved by including a huge number of people with minor abnormalities of the genital tract or hormones but who are absolutely unambiguously male or female. Hypospadias, congenital adrenal hyperplasia and so on. Klinefelter's, Turner's and so on. The percentage of babies born that can't be unambiguously and correctly seen to be male or female by a cursory glance at their crotch is more like 0.0175%. And even they are either male or female. They just need specialist testing to find out which. (Unfortunately nobody tested Castor Semenya or his pals on the podium in Rio in 2016.) There is nobody walking around who is neither male nor female, although there are a few people walking around who have it wrong about which they are, sadly. Nobody in society is in any doubt about which toilet is appropriate for them on the basis of being "intersex".
Second, this has got nothing at all to do with the trans issue. Men who decide they want to be women are not intersex. They're normal men with a psychological/psychiatric condition.
acbytesla
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So what? These people for some reason or another see themselves differently than you do. That you want to dismiss that and them is hardly justified.Well, first of all, intersex is a completely separate condition from being trans. Secondly, that 1.5%, or 1.7% seen elsewhere, is including conditions that are only vaguely related, a more accurate percentage is .018%. Thirdly, while XX and XY cover most of the population, there are technical definitions that do pretty much cover everyone (based on specific genes operating, for example).
How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed
Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as...
Rolfe
Adult human female
You have obviously never met someone with an abnormality of sexual development. In general, they are highly offended by any suggestion that they are not "real" men or women. And in particular they get absolutely furious to the point of incandescence about being used as pawns in the gender wars, as you are doing.
ETA: I remember being on the receiving end of a furious tirade from a bloke with Klinefelter's, about how I was interphobic and how dare I insinuate that he wasn't a man and he was not a chess piece to validate delusional men, then he blocked me. Someone else had to explain to him that he had, in haste, misread my tweet and conflated it with something someone else had said, and that I had in fact completely supported his position. He unblocked me with apologies, and explained again why he was so mad. But boy had he had enough of it. And most people with a DSD are of much the same mind.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
This bit.
Every post you make is brimming with unkindness and inhumanity to people who think differently from yourself about this issue.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
People with DSD (what you erroneously call "intersex") are still either biologically male, or biologically female so they are still part of the sex binary.
There is a whole thread on this issue so I suggest you make your "sex is not binary" claim there...
Resolved: Hilton, Wright, & Heying are essentially correct about what makes a mammal either female or male.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I have pointed out, twice now, that you yourself do not practise this admirable doctrine which you affect to preach. Your posts are brimming with unkindness and inhumanity towards human beings who happen to disagree with you on this issue. Or perhaps people who disagree with you aren't human beings in your eyes?
acbytesla
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That you insist on categorizing human beings as to how you define them doesn't change how they see themselves. Regardless if how they see themselves is based on some biologically identifiable characteristic or if it is based on something else. You see, I live my life attempting to be kind and fair to others. If you tell me your name is Fred, I'm not going to call you John or James or Jane.
Ziggurat
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No they don't. An estimated 1.5% of people have some disorder of sexual development (DSD), and "intersex" conditions are a subset of DSD's. But DSD's include a lot of conditions which are absolutely NOT "intersex". Deformed penis? That's a DSD. Undescended testicle? That's a DSD. Are these "intersex"? Nope. Hell, even people with "intersex" conditions are still either male or female, even if it's not immediately obvious which they are.
But even the most extreme case of "intersex" conditions doesn't change the binary nature of sex. There are only two sexes in ANY living organism on earth, because there are only ever two types of gametes, and thus only two sexes. There are no third gamete types, and thus no third sex. There are organisms which are sexless, there are organisms which are both sexes, and there are organisms which change sex. But no third sex. And true hermaphrodites and sex changing doesn't happen in humans, or any other mammal species.
People with DSD's absolutely exist. But they are still either male or female. And the trans debate isn't about them anyways. Trans people don't claim to be suffering from DSD's, and people with DSD's don't claim to be trans. These are separate issues, and the attempt to conflate them is always proof of dishonesty.
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