Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

Okay.
Subject matter conventions are typically put together by activists when the subject matter is about changing minds; no need to posit external pressure.

Trans rights activists, tho?

 

[d4m10n]

If there were also single-sex facilites that were reasonably convenient to access, then I can't see the problem.

There were facilities labeled "women" and "men" but the social norms prevailing were such that they were sorted by identity rather than sex.

 

[Thermal]

Anyone could identify as anything, if they were prepared to lie about it. And many are.

Yes, you've mentioned that you think they are all faking it.

 

[theprestige]

Is that wrong?

I can think of several good arguments against it, and none for it.

I've asked you for such a couple times, with lackluster results. I think the last time you tried an empty indictment of cis hegemony, or some such nonsense.

 

[d4m10n]

Trans rights activists, tho?

Depends on whether you consider converting restrooms to accommodate an oppressed group to be activism on their behalf.

(FWIW, I'm learning towards yes.)

 

[Rolfe]

There were facilities labeled "women" and "men" but the social norms prevailing were such that they were sorted by identity rather than sex.

That's unacceptable, and now we know it's illegal. In the convention I was at the main-floor toilets were all clearly labelled as mixed-sex. People who were OK about that could use them and people who weren't went to the other set downstairs. No reason to complain. No deception. Everyone catered for. Fully inclusive.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, you've mentioned that you think they are all faking it.

(a) I did not say that, and (b) that's not what I'm talking about.

OK. As someone who was definitely asexual until she was in her forties, after which it gets a little more fuzzy, I think these rainbow-addled "ace" posers are a bunch of performative narcissists.

 

[smartcooky]

Oh, I've seen plenty of these. These ones seem quite quiet. Usually they have pans and hooters and anything they can find to drown out women's voices.

Only the supporters of one side of this issue try to drown out people who say things they don't like, to no-platform them, to get them fired from their jobs or positions, makes threats of violence and death against they and their families, and holds up placards threatening violence and death. That side is TRA side - the side certain posters appear to be supporting.

 

[d4m10n]

That's unacceptable, and now we know it's illegal.

Bit surprised you're keeping up with legal changes in Missouri.

In the convention I was at the main-floor toilets were all clearly labelled as mixed-sex. People who were OK about that could use them and people who weren't went to the other set downstairs. No reason to complain. No deception. Everyone catered for. Fully inclusive.

Surely someone found some way to complain.

 

[theprestige]

Great! So to answer your own question... ot reask it... do you think Skepticon was caving under pressure, or just being cool, or what? Seems to me they were just trying to be cool. I do think see anything in there about being cowed by activists?

You lost me. Who claimed they were cowed by activists?

Much has been made of the role of ideological capture, in creating useful (if sometimes misguided) idiots.

 

[Thermal]

You lost me. Who claimed they were cowed by activists?

The question d4m1on asked was:

Why do you think Skepticon went to the trouble of creating unisex bathrooms, if it wasn't an attempt to appease gender activists?

Cowed or appease makes no significant difference.

Much has been made of the role of ideological capture, in creating useful (if sometimes misguided) idiots.

Ok. And so we can summarily dismiss any idea that Skepticon was just trying to be inclusive all by themselves? Did they down low object to this mightily?

 

[zooterkin]

Great! So to answer your own question... ot reask it... do you think Skepticon was caving under pressure, or just being cool, or what? Seems to me they were just trying to be cool. I do think see anything in there about being cowed by activists?

I went to an SF Con that had a similar setup, aiming to be very inclusive, with access consideration for the disabled, badges to indicate preferences for the neurodivergent, and gender neutral toilets (single sex ones also available)

Accessibility Information | Nine Worlds

We are founded on the belief that geekdom should not be restricted by class, age, gender, sexuality, disability, ethnicity, or the ability to cite Wookiepedia in arguments. Here's some detailed information about the con hotel and our access services.

nineworlds.co.uk

 

[d4m10n]

The question d4m1on asked was "Why do you think Skepticon went to the trouble of creating unisex bathrooms, if it wasn't an attempt to appease gender activists?"

Having seen their own justification, I think it is pretty clear that gender activism was in the loop.

 

[Rolfe]

I went to an SF Con that had a similar setup, aiming to be very inclusive, with access consideration for the disabled, badges to indicate preferences for the neurodivergent, and gender neutral toilets (single sex ones also available)

Accessibility Information | Nine Worlds

We are founded on the belief that geekdom should not be restricted by class, age, gender, sexuality, disability, ethnicity, or the ability to cite Wookiepedia in arguments. Here's some detailed information about the con hotel and our access services.

nineworlds.co.uk

Sounds like the one I went to, which was in Birmingham. I don't know anyone who objects to there being unisex or even mixed-sex toilets, so long as single-sex ones are also available.

The one that made me really uncomfortable was in Dublin, where the convention centre had Ladies, Gents, disabled and a unisex toilet on every floor. The convention organisers still put notices in the Ladies and the Gents saying not to complain if someone "looked as if they were in the wrong place". Many people were complaining about it, there were threads on Twitter, and nearly as many men seemed to be as upset as women. Fortunately there was an overflow venue not too far away where they'd forgotten the scolding notices and everything was normal. People were making a point of using the toilet while they were at that venue.

 

[Rolfe]

Having seen their own justification, I think it is pretty clear that gender activism was in the loop.

It always is.

 

[d4m10n]

And so we can summarily dismiss any idea that Skepticon was just trying to be inclusive all by themselves?

Why should it matter whether the activists promoting unisex restrooms were inside or outside the organization putting together the skeptic convention?

 

[Thermal]

Having seen their own justification, I think it is pretty clear that gender activism was in the loop.

Do you acknowledge any difference between being gender inclusive as your own priority and "appeasing gender activists"? I make a rather large distinction.

 

[Thermal]

Why should it matter whether the activists promoting unisex restrooms were inside or outside the organization putting together the skeptic convention?

Why do you assume activists were involved? I make decisions all the time without considering special interest lobbies. You dont?

 

[theprestige]

Is that wrong?

I can think of several good arguments against it, and none for it. You?

 

[Thermal]

I can think of several good arguments against it, and none for it. You?

I can think.of a couple decent ones against it and a couple very good ones in favor.