Merged Due process in the US

[zooterkin]

This is a good opportunity for the Supreme Court to ask for a witness. Just ask Trump to produce Garcia in court so they can ask him.

Habeas corpus. Though by now, I suspect the corpus is a corpse.

 

[Garrison]

To me the situation seems clear. Anyone in the USA is entitled to due process, unless the Trump administration decides you are a bad person in which case you can be whisked out of the country in the dead of night. Anyone who thinks that's going to be limited to illegal immigrants is a wild optimist.

 

[JayUtah]

In immigration law, parole means a discretionary decision to allow a non-citizen to remain in the country.

Correct. In this case it refers to approximately 300,000 persons per year who sought permission to enter the United States and were allowed to enter on parole and reside in the United States while their cases were adjudicated. These parolees often have valid visas. In all nominal cases they were under case management, had assigned counsel and judges, had appearance dates, and were complying with the terms of their parole.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Hercules has asserted that Garcia is the wrong person to defend, in part because he's such a bad guy that the public will reject the defense and the cause of justice will be set back. The remedy for this seems to be to let this one go, and try next time. I think that's a serious mistake.
Next times are tentative and tend to stretch into more next times until it's too late.

That.

It was why I was asking if the video I posted in another thread was genuine:

Can someone tell me whether this is genuine or not - on my cursory searches it seems legit:

MSN

That type of behaviour is straight out of the Nazi (and of course other dictatorships) playbook. People wondered how many "average" Germans ended up complicit in so many atrocities, well it's like the canard about a frog in saucepan and gradually boiling the water. This type of misbehaviour doesn't just humiliate the victim; it affects the perpetrators and moves them closer to being inured to outright atrocities.

 

[Vixen]

This was mass emailed to many immigrants. Many of them green card holders. Two Finns so far.

Oh no! Does that mean you are in danger..?


.

 

[Darat]

Another one.





Boy, they're sure making a lot of "mistakes."

Can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.

(A vegan egg substitute does not make an omelette.)

 

[JayUtah]

Habeus corpus. Though by now, I suspect the corpus is a corpse.

Possibly. Time permitting, I hope to answer Beelzebuddy's post on the subject, which was addressed specifically to me. It's not unreasonable to believe Abrego Garcia is already dead and that this is being hidden behind all the procedural and political hurdles.

However there's a straightforward reason for stonewalling. The whole idea of sending people to CECOT in a foreign country is to deny habeas relief. It muddies up the waters enough that everyone responsible can semi-credibly say they don't have the authority to produce a prisoner thus condemned. If the government demonstrates it has the power to bring anyone back from CECOT, the whole game is up. If habeas applies to CECOT, then CECOT is completely worthless for its intended purpose as far as the Trump administration is concerned. Assuming he's alive, the government has to keep Abrego Garcia under wraps at all costs.

 

[theprestige]

How are you defining "found guilty?" Because most of what we're talking about here is the deportation of people who have not been tried and found guilty in the usual sense.

You know this how? Do you even know what happens between when a person is detained by ICE, and a deportation order is issued? Do you know who orders deportations of ICE detainees, and what the process for issuing the order is?

They are being deported because someone has decided they're guilty.

I'm asking you if you have any idea who that someone is, and the process by which they arrived at that decision.

Also, I think you might be conflating detentions and deportations. There's a difference between the police deciding they have probable cause to arrest you ("deciding you're guilty") and the judge (or jury) deciding you're guilty based on the evidence provided, and sentencing you accordingly.

And that (I presume you've opened a link or two by now) includes people who are here legally.

People who are claimed to be here legally. People get arrested while protesting their innocence all the time. Guilty people sometimes even protest their innocence all the way through convicting and sentencing.

Too, something like having a green card doesn't indemnify you against being arrested and tried for immigration or naturalization fraud, or for violating the conditions of having a green card (whatever those might be). A fraudulently obtained driver's license doesn't mean you're driving legally. An authentic driver's license can still be revoked if you violate the conditions for having one.

 

[jimbob]

Possibly. Time permitting, I hope to answer Beelzebuddy's post on the subject, which was addressed specifically to me. It's not unreasonable to believe Abrego Garcia is already dead and that this is being hidden behind all the procedural and political hurdles.

However there's a straightforward reason for stonewalling. The whole idea of sending people to CECOT in a foreign country is to deny habeas relief. It muddies up the waters enough that everyone responsible can semi-credibly say they don't have the authority to produce a prisoner thus condemned. If the government demonstrates it has the power to bring anyone back from CECOT, the whole game is up. If habeas applies to CECOT, then CECOT is completely worthless for its intended purpose as far as the Trump administration is concerned. Assuming he's alive, the government has to keep Abrego Garcia under wraps at all costs.

A horrible logic, but yes.

I had thought about the claim that they couldn't do anything, but not the inferences one would draw if the administration then does bring him back.

 

[JayUtah]

Breaking my "no posting in USA politics rule" because the opportunity to correct JayUtah doesn't come around every day.

Yes they will.

I realize it's formalistic to point out that I'm talking about two different cases. The case of Abrego Garcia differs importantly in the facts from the case of the "Get out of the country" email. Obviously the courts have something to say about Abrego Garcia. And I presume the courts will eventually have something to say about the mass email. The situation is different because no one who received the email is yet being hustled off to death camps or abducted and herded onto airplanes. Those affected have the opportunity to lawyer up. I understand the three parolee families with visas in my city will be represented pro bono by one of our best immigration law firms. When I say the courts will not let this stand, I can say so because there is time and opportunity for the courts to act in this situation before the outcome is fait accompli. This stands in marked contrast to the Abrego Garcia case, which leaves the court limited options.

Garcia's dead. From what I understand, his asylum stipulated that he was never to be returned to El Salvador under any circumstances due to a credible threat of death. He was sent to a death camp with piles of bodies visible in satellite imagery. He's dead. By the time SCOTUS ruled 9-0 not to allow such ineptitude to stand, he was already dead. You can maybe habeas his corpus if you ask nicely enough.

We don't know for a fact that he is dead. But it's reasonable to infer that he is from the circumstances.

So what's the judiciary going to do? Not a solitary goddamn thing. They're going to say "well, at least we won't let this happen to American citizens!" while overlooking how it's already happening to American citizens.

The judiciary has limited options in the Abrego Garcia case precisely because the government specifically orchestrated the disappearance of him and others to deny due process and habeas relief. The Supreme Court's ruling requiring that further claims be brought in habeas and with proper notice is too little too late. No argument there. But the courts dealing with the mass email have both the opportunity to act and a greater understanding of what the government is attempt to carry out.

 

[plague311]

People who are claimed to be here legally. People get arrested while protesting their innocence all the time. Guilty people sometimes even protest their innocence all the way through convicting and sentencing.

Which means ◊◊◊◊ all to this case because, as we already know, the person in question was here legally on protected status.

Too, something like having a green card doesn't indemnify you against being arrested and tried for immigration or naturalization fraud, or for violating the conditions of having a green card (whatever those might be).

Which, again, means ◊◊◊◊ all to this case because, as we already know, the Trump admin has already admitted it was a mistake and they ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up. The person in question violated nothing, and was illegally arrested and deported.

A fraudulently obtained driver's license doesn't mean you're driving legally. An authentic driver's license can still be revoked if you violate the conditions for having one.

Seriously who gives a ◊◊◊◊? What does this have to do with anything? I hate these ridiculous analogies that have nothing to do with anything.

 

[johnny karate]

Due process doesn't mean the same process for everyone. It means the process due to each one based on the details of their case. The process due an illegal immigrant appealing for asylum isn't the same as the process due a citizen fighting a traffic ticket.

The effort you put into keeping the parameters of your argument as vague as possible to make it look like you're not defending the thing you're defending is astonishing.

 

[jimbob]

Due process doesn't mean the same process for everyone. It means the process due to each one based on the details of their case. The process due an illegal immigrant appealing for asylum isn't the same as the process due a citizen fighting a traffic ticket.

How does this affect the specific case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia? Was he denied the due process he has a right to? Was he deported illegally?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

What if it's an illegal immigrant fighting a traffic ticket?

Summary execution.

 

[I Am The Scum]

The effort you put into keeping the parameters of your argument as vague as possible to make it look like you're not defending the thing you're defending is astonishing.

If he were to grant a decent amount of leeway into what this administration is allowed to do, there's always that chance that they overstep even those boundaries by next Tuesday. Theprestige already stepped in it by falling for the administration's lie that Khalil was being detained because of an actual criminal complaint (when in reality, he was being detained for his political beliefs). The moment Theprestige states what the actual rules should be, he puts himself in the realm of falsifiability. He won't do it.

 

[Tero]

-your name sounds foreign
-lock him up!

Jackie Llanos (@llanosjackie.bsky.social)

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

bsky.app

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

 

[Resume]

-your name sounds foreign
-lock him up!

Jackie Llanos (@llanosjackie.bsky.social)

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

bsky.app

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

Oh look! Another "mistake."

MTG's district maybe?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I believe Hercules56's argument is that he wasn't in the US legally, waited too long to claim asylum, worked illegally before claiming asylum and so isn't necessarily entitled to due process in the US and that, as an El Salvadorean citizen he is now "home" and so any beef he has should be with the El Salvadoran government - which is famous for its due process especially for paid-for prisoners residing in its concentration camp jails.

No, Herc's been clear that he was entitled to due process and didn't get it. What he thinks the guy is much less entitled to (than someone more deserving of our sympathy would be) is the expense of any effort to put that right.

That makes zero sense to me, since a right which has no remedy for its being ignored is no right at all.

 

[Hercules56]

-your name sounds foreign
-lock him up!

Jackie Llanos (@llanosjackie.bsky.social)

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

bsky.app

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

Unacceptable. If there is any evidence whatsoever that ICE knows he is a citizen but refuses to immediately release him, someone should be charged. And someone should resign. It should be a crime for ICE to knowingly hold a US citizen.

 

[Darat]

-your name sounds foreign
-lock him up!

Jackie Llanos (@llanosjackie.bsky.social)

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

bsky.app

Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez will be held in jail for the next 48 hours because he is under an ICE hold. Again, he is a U.S. citizen born in Georgia.

Should have changed his name to something sounding more rich, white, and Christian like Donnie Fartpants-Symthe