Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I have always and only been talking about what qualifies as a trans pass in public policy.
But Herc asked me, not you, how *I* defined a transwoman, and how much transitioning needed to be done. I answered.
I thought you were talking about the same thing.

If you don't think that self ID is an all access pass, then what do you think is the pass?
No all-access passes, for anyone. In Happy World, we could have that. In the real one, not so much. That's kinda been my thing.
 
So according to YOU, a transgender woman can dress like the Marlboro man but should be allowed access to the ladies room. Because of wats between his ears.
Just want to throw this out there
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<SNIP> for breach of rule 0.


No, I do not say appearances are relevant to access. It's a stupid thing to even think.

And that is all.
 
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But Herc asked me, not you, how *I* defined a transwoman, and how much transitioning needed to be done. I answered....
No, i was asking about whether a certain level of transition should be required for men to use women's facilities under the guise of being transgender.

You keep saying "no, all that matters is wats between their ears".

Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
 
In order to have an opinion on trans-rights I must have at least a wiki-level familiarity with the facts of an incident at a spa from four years ago?
If you want to discuss the incident itself, it really wouldn't hurt to go over the known knowns first.
If you want to show me some information, do it. If not, please stop wasting everyone's time.
I already gave you the link. You can lead a stallion/mare/non-binary horse to water...
 
No, i was asking about whether a certain level of transition should be required for men to use women's facilities under the guise of being transgender.

You keep saying "no, all that matters is wats between their ears".

Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
You asked several questions, only one which required a y/n, which I didn't give as an answer. I didn't 'keep saying' a goddamned thing.

For utmost clarity, I have no transition requirements for bathroom access, as no one anywhere should have.

For extreme clarity, that doesn't mean they can enter a womens rest room with no transitioning requirements. it means there are no requirements on them to justify their transitioning in the first place.

I think we are good on that point now, yes?
 
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Certainly. You're not a bad faith poster, even in disagreement.
(y)
I can pretty much guess at where you're Socratically leading, but I'm game:
You probably can - but part of the exercise is actually going through each of the steps, the logical premise for each one builds on that prior. If we skip ahead, we end up unable to identify the actual point of diversion in our views.
Yes, generally a true statement, with the caveat that the first is the overwhelming majority, likely well over 90%, and the other two very small. Also, I don't think males in general want to hurt females generically; it tends to be more personally focused, with exceptions of course.
Sure, vast majority in the first category, smaller in the latter two. I'm perhaps not as optimistic as you that it's well over 90%, but it's hard to pin down. And in the second category (no wish to physically harm, but less concerned about females feeling endangered) includes males who blatantly ogle females, who make comments about our bodies when we're just going about our day, who cop a feel in a crowded venue, cat-calls, etc. Perhaps a lot of males don't understand how this makes most females feel, how intimidating and violating it can be... but it really sucks for us pretty regularly. There's nothing quite like being a 12 year old who's already self-conscious about our changing bodies and then realizing that a 50 year old is staring at your boobs.

Anyway...

Some portion of males are "safe" all the way around; some portion of males will cause discomfort and/or harm to females - let's call them "risky". Is there a way for females to discern which males are safe and which are risky?
 
@Emily's Cat : you catch the above? Start running a scorecard on good faith, honest, and intelligent postings versus... the rest.
I know, I see it. I'm not the boss of them. I get where they're coming from, and I also get where you're coming from. I also understand where the disconnect is, but it's hard to put into words and even trying to is only going to cause confrontation and make no headway. If it's any consolation, damion (who has almost always been on "my" side of this discussion) spent probably two months being run through the wringer even more than you have for the same sort of thing. There's an under-the-hood inconsistency that is almost impossible to get past unless you drill way down deep, and trying to respond to the barrage won't help you or them.

Try to just set it aside for now, okay? Treat them as the peanut gallery, hecklers if you will.
 
You asked several questions, only one which required a y/n, which I didn't give as an answer. I didn't 'keep saying' a goddamned thing.

For utmost clarity, I have no transition requirements for bathroom access, as no one anywhere should have.

I think we are good on that point now, yes?
Gotcha. Clearly your views on this matter are on the extreme leftfield of the trans rights spectrum. No transition necessary, just self ID. Dress like a man but wanna pee with the chicks? Go ahead!!

:(
 
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Funny, cuz YOU keep saying that the only level of social/medical transition that a man should have to undergo in order to use female facilities, should be between their ears.
No, that's not what Thermal has said. Thermal has repeatedly stated that sex-segregation of facilities should be retained.

It gets complicated because Thermal is also trying to extend social courtesy to transgender people in every other situation. Try to think about it as being in line with my view, and that of Rolfe and theprestige and pretty much all of the regular posters here: We don't care how a person dresses or adorns themselves, we don't care if they wear make-up or steel-toed boots, we don't care if they have long hair or short. That's irrelevant to sex. Where Thermal differs at the moment is that they fall on the side of preferred pronouns as a courtesy, and if they believe a person is a transgender identified male, they'll interact with them in the same general way that they interact with females - little to no physical contact, no ogling, not as rambunctious of a verbal exchange, etc.
 
I have no transition requirements for bathroom access, as no one anywhere should have.
People who have transitioned enough to pass as the opposite sex (e.g. Buck AngelWP) are going to cause less consternation in the minds of fellow bathroom users when using the bathroom designed for the opposite sex than their own. This isn't exactly a "transition requirement" but it does matter to the moral calculus of harm reduction that they have fully transitioned.
 
So according to YOU, a transgender woman can dress like the Marlboro man but should be allowed access to the ladies room. Because of wats between his ears.
This is inconsistent with what Thermal has said.

Herc, I appreciate where you're coming from, I value your support... but can you back off a bit and try to play nice for a bit?
 
This is inconsistent with what Thermal has said.

Herc, I appreciate where you're coming from, I value your support... but can you back off a bit and try to play nice for a bit?
Its a bit hyperbolic but Im trying to make a point. However.....yeah sure I shall pull back.
 
No, that's not what Thermal has said. Thermal has repeatedly stated that sex-segregation of facilities should be retained.

It gets complicated because Thermal is also trying to extend social courtesy to transgender people in every other situation. Try to think about it as being in line with my view, and that of Rolfe and theprestige and pretty much all of the regular posters here: We don't care how a person dresses or adorns themselves, we don't care if they wear make-up or steel-toed boots, we don't care if they have long hair or short. That's irrelevant to sex. Where Thermal differs at the moment is that they fall on the side of preferred pronouns as a courtesy, and if they believe a person is a transgender identified male, they'll interact with them in the same general way that they interact with females - little to no physical contact, no ogling, not as rambunctious of a verbal exchange, etc.

You reckon? Because I feel I'm losing count. Was it Thermal who said that he appreciated women's desire to have women-only spaces, and indeed his favoured solution is to have women-only spaces plus spaces open to absolutely anyone, but also Thermal who insists that transwomen are women and I'm being mean to "my own people" if I don't want that particular sort of "woman" in women-only spaces, but also Thermal who said that in order to be a transwoman no man has to change anything about his appearance or indeed meet any minimum external criteria at all?

Because if you put all that together it looks awfully like self-ID to me. If it was only Thermal saying that if his spidey-sense divines that a man has the right feelz between his ears he'd use his preferred pronouns and open doors for him, I don't see where the problem would arise. We can all surely use our own judgement as to whose pronoun demands we choose to honour, that isn't an issue.
 
This is inconsistent with what Thermal has said.

Herc, I appreciate where you're coming from, I value your support... but can you back off a bit and try to play nice for a bit?

I'm with Herc on this. That is exactly what Thermal appears to me to be saying.
 
I'm with Herc on this. That is exactly what Thermal appears to me to be saying.
Thank you. Thermal has said repeatedly that no minimum level of transition should be required for transwomen to use the ladies room. All that matters, HE says, is what between their ears.
 
Thermal has said repeatedly that no minimum level of transition should be required for transwomen to use the ladies room.
I think they said no minimum level of transition should be required to be considered a (trans)woman, and since we were talking about bathroom access at the time we (somewhat hastily) made the leap.
 
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You reckon? Because I feel I'm losing count. Was it Thermal who said that he appreciated women's desire to have women-only spaces, and indeed his favoured solution is to have women-only spaces plus spaces open to absolutely anyone, but also Thermal who insists that transwomen are women and I'm being mean to "my own people" if I don't want that particular sort of "woman" in women-only spaces, but also Thermal who said that in order to be a transwoman no man has to change anything about his appearance or indeed meet any minimum external criteria at all?

Because if you put all that together it looks awfully like self-ID to me. If it was only Thermal saying that if his spidey-sense divines that a man has the right feelz between his ears he'd use his preferred pronouns and open doors for him, I don't see where the problem would arise. We can all surely use our own judgement as to whose pronoun demands we choose to honour, that isn't an issue.
I know, and that's why I'm trying to walk through it step by step.

What I can piece together doesn't fit with my own views, nor with what I know of yours, but I think I can see where Thermal's coming from.

Basically, anyone can *identify* as whatever they want - it's essentially jus their own perception of themselves. That means that they can dress up or down, ball gown or dungarees, and it makes no difference at all to how they *self-identify*. To that extent, no amount of transition is required. And generally speaking, Thermal is happy to go along with however someone identifies themselves to them, and to make an inference about how Thermal believes any person is likely to identify. So if they see a male-shaped person in a dress, they'll simply assume they're probably trans, and Thermal will interact with them as if they were a female socially; similarly if they see a female-shaped person with a beard, they'll assume they're trans and interact with them as if they were male.

But that seems to only extend to how Thermal interacts with them in open public spaces, and what Thermal believes common courtesy should be. It doesn't extend to intimate spaces, which Thermal has said several times should remain sex-segregated. If the world were perfect and there were no bad apples out there, then sex-segregation as a whole wouldn't be necessary, but that's fantasy and we need to take reality into consider as policy.

I do note that Thermal bristles when they infer that a group of people is being maligned in total based on what they believe is a small number of bad actors. So for the moment at least, Thermal is working from the assumption that most transgender identified people are genuine in their belief about themselves and intend no harm - in short, that most transgender identified males genuinely think of themselves as females in the same way that Thermal thinks females think of ourselves. You and I may not agree, but that seems to be where they're starting from.

That's my high level synopsis of Thermal's view. If it's materially incorrect, they can add their own commentary.
 

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