Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

You want to portray this as misogynist men versus women, but women who aren't anti-trans have no problem with transwomen using the bathroom. This issue is clearly not men vs women, but conservative versus liberal.

Again, you repeat a TRA talking point - "anyone objecting to a trans woman using the women's bathroom is anti-trans"

 

[Ziggurat]

Yet I don't agree it fails. You point out masculine behavior, label it as masculine, then deny the existence of masculine/feminine behavior. You don't make sense.

Dude, no. I'm not denying that, at all. I never have. God you're bad at reading comprehension.

Again, how do you define "woman"? If you define it based on biology, then transwomen aren't women. You want a definition which includes them. So what is it? If it's just dress, that's meaningless. If it's behavior being characteristically female, a lot of them fail that too. So what's your definition, and why should we segregate based on that definition and not biology? You have no coherent answer.

 

[Mycroft]

Dude, no. I'm not denying that, at all. I never have. God you're bad at reading comprehension.

Again, how do you define "woman"? If you define it based on biology, then transwomen aren't women. You want a definition which includes them. So what is it? If it's just dress, that's meaningless. If it's behavior being characteristically female, a lot of them fail that too. So what's your definition, and why should we segregate based on that definition and not biology? You have no coherent answer.

I've already addressed all of this.

You and I are done for a little bit. I'll be ready when you can come up with something new.

 

[Mycroft]

Again, you repeat a TRA talking point - "anyone objecting to a trans woman using the women's bathroom is anti-trans"

It's observable, so yeah. While I was unaware it is a TRA talking point, but it's clear it's a TRA talking point for a good reason.

 

[Ziggurat]

This issue is clearly not men vs women, but conservative versus liberal.

That's the lens you see it through (which has blinded you), but that's a gross oversimplification. A lot of liberals aren't on board with the TRA agenda.

And it's not simply a men vs women issue either, because a lot of women ARE on board with the TRAs, and a lot of men (myself included) are not. They are mostly educated upper middle and upper class women, because there's a significant class aspect to this too.

 

[Ziggurat]

I've already addressed all of this.

You provided a definition which contradicted your assertion that transwomen are women. And you couldn't even recognize that. It's not on me to come up with something new, it's for you to come up with a position which isn't self contradictory. Which you haven't done.

 

[Elaedith]

I've already addressed all of this.

You and I are done for a little bit. I'll be ready when you can come up with something new.

In the same way you 'addressed' my question about whether women should have the right to object to males entering a female space; that is, not at all.

 

[Mycroft]

In the same way you 'addressed' my question about whether women should have the right to object to males entering a female space; that is, not at all.

Again, we don't agree transwomen are not women. As long as you keep trying to force me to adopt your paradigm, I'm done responding to you.

There is a logical fallacy about assuming the conclusion. Do you remember what it's called?

 

[d4m10n]

My statement is I personally don't need to gatekeep about who is trans.

Of course you do, if only to understand what's on- or off-topic here and discuss it coherently.

You used the phrase "woman only space" earlier and presumably you must have something specific in mind which implies conceptual gatekeeping. If the space is only for women then some people are being kept out, after all. I'd go further and say you probably have something beyond the traditional definition (rooted in sex and maturity) in mind.

I know this has been asked before, but who belongs in a "woman only space" in your personal view?

(If the answer isn't "anyone at all" then you, too, are a gatekeeper.)

 

[Elaedith]

Again, we don't agree transwomen are not women. As long as you keep trying to force me to adopt your paradigm, I'm done responding to you.

There is a logical fallacy about assuming the conclusion. Do you remember what it's called?

You should know what it's called as you keep doing it. For example, begging the question by declaring women who object to transwomen in female spaces to be 'anti-trans' assumes that transwomen are women and they are objecting due to their being trans rather than to their being male.

I am not the one begging any question. I am asking whether women have the right to object to a male entering a female space. You know why you can't answer.

 

[Ziggurat]

Again, we don't agree transwomen are not women.

They aren't, under the only definition of "woman" you provided. You refuse to provide the definition you are actually using.

As long as you keep trying to force me to adopt your paradigm, I'm done responding to you.

You mean the paradigm of logical consistency? Patriarchal tool of oppression, no doubt.

There is a logical fallacy about assuming the conclusion.

That's what you have done. You have assumed that transwomen are women, but have no definition with which to back it up.

 

[Mycroft]

I am not the one begging any question. I am asking whether women have the right to object to a male entering a female space. You know why you can't answer.

If the "male" in question is a trans-woman, then you are begging the question.

 

[Mycroft]

(If the answer isn't "anyone at all" then you, too, are a gatekeeper.)

I don't agree, but since I'm not arguing against gate-keeping in general, it's not important.

What I said is I don't personally need to be a gatekeeper. Your assertions that I do because I am are unconvincing.

 

[Mycroft]

In my country it's a whole army of left-wing women up in arms because they believe their political party has got it wrong and is betraying them. Including me. (Former political party, in my case. Ironically, while fanatically championing the trans cause, my former party is also moving to the right with indecent haste.)

Your country is Scotland?

Is your party moving toward the right on any other issues? Or is it just trans issues?

BTW, I just got back from running some errands, and I took the opportunity to ask random women I met what they think about transwomen using women's public bathrooms. Out of 8 people (I know, small sample size) 6 said they didn't care, 2 said they preferred not to answer, and nobody said they were bothered by transwomen using a public woman's bathroom.

One of my errands was voting and one of those women who declined to answer is a poll worker, so I'm assuming that's why she chose not to answer.

 

[Elaedith]

If the "male" in question is a trans-woman, then you are begging the question.

Are you saying women have the right to object to a male person who is not a transwoman entering a female space?

 

[Rolfe]

Your country is Scotland?

Is your party moving toward the right on any other issues? Or is it just trans issues?

BTW, I just got back from running some errands, and I took the opportunity to ask random women I met what they think about transwomen using women's public bathrooms. Out of 8 people (I know, small sample size) 6 said they didn't care, 2 said they preferred not to answer, and nobody said they were bothered by transwomen using a public woman's bathroom.

One of my errands was voting and one of those women who declined to answer is a poll worker, so I'm assuming that's why she chose not to answer.

It's not my party any more. I don't consider it's stance on trans issues to be particularly right-wing. It's turning into the legendary Tartan Tories on just about everything else though. Land reform ditched, opposition to nuclear weapons ditched, freeports, cosying up to corporations, corruption. They can do one, frankly. My resignation letter had about 20 points on it, of which their contempt for women's rights wasn't even in the top ten.

Did you actually explain to your random sample of six women that by "transwomen" you meant adult men who had all their male bits intact? Because many surveys have shown that a lot of people think that a transwoman is a woman who wants to be a man.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you saying women have the right to object to a male person who is not a transwoman entering a female space?

We could be even more analytical and ask him if he thinks that women should have the right to object to a male person entering a female space, and then whether women should have the right to categorise men who call themselves transwomen as male people.

How it seems to me is that he is insistent that women must view the issue as he does and believe that TWAW. If we would only do that one thing then it would all be fine, wouldn't it? However, I refuse to be compelled to believe that a grown-ass man who has merely said the magic words "I am a woman" is anything other than a grown-ass man. (Indeed even if he has had a shave - larynx as well as beard - and has had his bits cut off and boob implants and FFS and is dressed in a ballgown like Tootsie, I refuse to be compelled to believe that he is anything other than a man.)

 

[d4m10n]

I don't agree, but since I'm not arguing against gate-keeping in general, it's not important.

I know this has been asked before, but who belongs in a "woman only space" in your personal view?

 

[Thermal]

I have a dream, that one day there will be no more segregation, but that we will have communal spaces and private spaces. Cats and dogs, living together. Unless they need some privacy.

 

[Rolfe]

Why do you think that is something worth dreaming about? Is there no value in allowing cats to have some space to socialise with other cats, and dogs some space to socialise with other dogs? Can there be no cat space where a dog may not go in at will? If not, why not? Why would these spaces be something you would want to outlaw?