Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Mycroft said:
The only people I've seen who have described a trans-person's clothes as a costume have been anti-trans people here in this thread. I think it's meant to be dismissive of the trans-experience and a pejorative.
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All clothes are costumes.
 
Clutch Cargo said:
Are you telling me that you have never been anywhere in Japan where men and women share the same lavatory? I don't believe you are being honest.
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Your claim: "lavatories have "always" been shared by both men and women in Japan" now shifts to "Are you telling me that you have never been anywhere..."

That in itself is a dishonest shift.

That said... no. I don't think I have been anywhere where toilets are shared outside of some small cafes and restaurants where there might be a single toilet for use of customers.

There may be some incredibly rare rural onsen which are "konyoku" - i.e males and females bathe together, but these are not seen very often at all.

Otherwise, public places such as schools, universities, municipal gyms and swimming pools, parks, hospitals, supermarkets, zoos, etc... are all segregated.

Perhaps the only thing that might surprise a Western visitor is when men using the gents walk in and find a little old lady mopping the floor.

If you have better evidence than sheer incredulity then maybe you can post it. Otherwise, I have to wonder where you are getting your information from.
 
Mycroft said:
The only people I've seen who have described a trans-person's clothes as a costume have been anti-trans people here in this thread. I think it's meant to be dismissive of the trans-experience and a pejorative.
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Well, it's clearly a pejorative to women if a man thinks by wearing a dress and heels he becomes one.
 
Ziggurat said:
Female.

Transwomen are not female. If they were, they would just be women. They are transwomen and not just women because they are male.

What part of that is confusing to you? Do you not understand what male and female mean? Do you think Caitlin Jenner is female?
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I never really though of how I would describe Caitlyn Jenner, but at least one judge and Time magazine described her as female.

"The decision from Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Gerald Rosenberg means Jenner can now obtain government documents, such as a driver’s license, under her new name with the gender designated as female, the Associated Press reports."

time.com

Judge Approves Caitlyn Jenner's Name and Gender Change

It's official
time.com time.com

Ziggurat said:
What part of “so many” did you not understand? Did you think it meant “all”? Because it doesn’t. And there’s a reason that so many avoid the “woman = adult human female” definition, specifically because it OBVIOUSLY excludes transwomen.
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It's not-so-obvious to that judge and Time magazine.
 
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angrysoba said:
Your claim: "lavatories have "always" been shared by both men and women in Japan" now shifts to "Are you telling me that you have never been anywhere..."

That in itself is a dishonest shift.

That said... no. I don't think I have been anywhere where toilets are shared outside of some small cafes and restaurants where there might be a single toilet for use of customers.

There may be some incredibly rare rural onsen which are "konyoku" - i.e males and females bathe together, but these are not seen very often at all.

Otherwise, public places such as schools, universities, municipal gyms and swimming pools, parks, hospitals, supermarkets, zoos, etc... are all segregated.

Perhaps the only thing that might surprise a Western visitor is when men using the gents walk in and find a little old lady mopping the floor.

If you have better evidence than sheer incredulity then maybe you can post it. Otherwise, I have to wonder where you are getting your information from.
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First, just in case you missed it, I wrote "always" in quotation marks. Second, I don't know why you single out rural Japan. I've never been to rural Japan. I am speaking from personal experience in the city. Anyway, I assume you know what a "stall" is, yes? So ...... use your head and don't pretend you don't know what I am talking about. Unisex toilettes are nothing new. If you want support against nude exposure then I'm onboard but don't try to smoke screen me because you'll lose.
 
Mycroft said:
I never really though of how I would describe Caitlyn Jenner, but at least one judge and Time magazine described her as female.

"The decision from Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Gerald Rosenberg means Jenner can now obtain government documents, such as a driver’s license, under her new name with the gender designated as female, the Associated Press reports."
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Gender isn’t real. Sex is. I don’t care if a judge is willing to play along with a fiction, but Jenner’s sex is, was, and will always be male. A government document cannot change that.
 
Mycroft said:
Maybe, but if true, saying trans-people regard clothing as a costume is meaningless.
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Good thing then that that’s not what I said. Trace the conversation back a few posts if you’ve forgotten.
 
Ziggurat said:
Gender isn’t real. Sex is. I don’t care if a judge is willing to play along with a fiction, but Jenner’s sex is, was, and will always be male. A government document cannot change that.
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I dunno. If we can get the government to issue documents with whatever age we wish, none of us would grow old and we'd live forever!
 
Ziggurat said:
Gender isn’t real. Sex is. I don’t care if a judge is willing to play along with a fiction, but Jenner’s sex is, was, and will always be male. A government document cannot change that.
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As long as the judiciary and the press use that word differently from you, it's not decided among society as a whole.
 
Mycroft said:
As long as the judiciary and the press use that word differently from you, it's not decided among society as a whole.
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And? Does that make transwomen actually female? No, it doesn’t.

Society can engage in whatever make believe it wants to, I’m not obligated to play along with the fantasy. Chocolate rations have not been increased from 30 grams to 20 grams. We have not always been at war with Eastasia.
 
Ziggurat said:
Good thing then that that’s not what I said. Trace the conversation back a few posts if you’ve forgotten.
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Okay...

Ziggurat said:
They act like it, though.
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Isn't this you saying trans-people act as though clothing is costume?

If all clothes are costume, then saying one group or another acts like their clothes are costume is a meaningless statement.

If you disagree, feel free to explain.
 
Ziggurat said:
And? Does that make transwomen actually female? No, it doesn’t.

Society can engage in whatever make believe it wants to, I’m not obligated to play along with the fantasy. Chocolate rations have not been increased from 30 grams to 20 grams. We have not always been at war with Eastasia.
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You stand strong against this propaganda! Your virtue will be rewarded in the afterlife.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I've asked you very directly several times now. What specifically do you believe that transgender identified males share in common with females that they do not also share in common with males? What specifically makes this set of males a subset of females in your eyes?
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Mycroft said:
The desire to live as women.

I don't think more than that is necessary.
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I have no "desire to live as a woman". I am a woman, I was given no option in the matter. There have been times when being a woman has been a significant disadvantage, and I've wished I'd been born male. But I've always understood that reality cannot be changed by the thoughts in my head.
 
Pixel42 said:
I have no "desire to live as a woman". I am a woman, I was given no option in the matter. There have been times when being a woman has been a significant disadvantage, and I've wished I'd been born male. But I've always understood that reality cannot be changed by the thoughts in my head.
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That speaks to your personal experience. I was talking about the experience of trans-people.
 
Clutch Cargo said:
First, just in case you missed it, I wrote "always" in quotation marks. Second, I don't know why you single out rural Japan. I've never been to rural Japan. I am speaking from personal experience in the city. Anyway, I assume you know what a "stall" is, yes? So ...... use your head and don't pretend you don't know what I am talking about. Unisex toilettes are nothing new. If you want support against nude exposure then I'm onboard but don't try to smoke screen me because you'll lose.
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You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You went to "the city" did you?

You probably went to a different country and not Japan at all. Maybe as a child and that's why your memory of it isn't very accurate?
 
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