Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

- Collection of information on biological sex is compulsory, while collection of gender information is optional. For example,a driver's licence, passport, ID card etc must show the holder's biological sex, but the holder may also opt to have a line that shows their gender.
I have two driving licenses: a UK one that was issued while the UK was still in the EU, and a Japanese driving license.

I can’t find anywhere on the card where sex (or gender) is written.

Look for yourself. This is a template of a Japanese driving license. As you can see there is no sex (or gender) written on it.
 

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I very clearly remember when it was argued gay marriage was a "special right", and gays already had all the same rights as heterosexuals because they could marry to opposite gender too.
The law is equal: both rich AND poor are forbidden to sleep under bridges!
 
I'd be happy to consider compromise. I came into this debate five-ish years ago looking for compromise. I'd still like to compromise. But other than maybe preferred pronouns, I don't see any likely basis for it.

I suppose I could compromise on medicine: Let people do real research without fear of being canceled, and then go where the science leads us. If it leads us back to youth gender medicine, I can accept that.

Is the compromise here that governing bodies be allowed to make their own decisions? I can support that, as long as it's clear that governing bodies have the right to uphold sex segregation, including the legal protection to do so.

And I think this needs to be the case across all areas where sex is segregated.

And I think that in cases where the government itself is a governing body (public restrooms, for example), then the decision needs to be to uphold sex segregation in public policy.

Is there room for compromise there? I don't know. What I've described are my hard limits. Are they close enough to the other side for someone to meet me where I'm at?

A lot of things sound a bit wacky when they're not being properly researched. I'm always happy to compromise on more scientific investigation into the causes and treatments for gender dysphoria and related conditions, on the same basis as before: Do real science without fear of cancelation, and then go where it leads us.

Is cross-dressing an early indicator of possible gender dysphoria? Seems plausible. Maybe we need to do more research. Good research.

But I bet if it is, it's a lot like the DSM. People read a list of indicators for trained psychiatrists, and think that qualifies them to diagnose any mental disorder known to man. Sure, cross-dressing is probably an indicator of something, but that doesn't mean we should assume any kid we see in a long-haired wig is about to go full trans. Maybe it just means they'll be a turbo theater kid in high school.
Yeah. I probably agree with the majority of that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to each point.
 
My NJ license has gender! We're progressive!
"Transwomen" are men. If you don't understand that, I don't really know what you're doing on a web site generally thought of as supporting the scientific view of reality.
Transwomen are biologically men, and socially women. I really don't know what your doing among the humans if you think you're Mr Spock.
 
What about people with Swyer syndrome? Should these women be forced to use the men's room because they have xy chromosomes? Should we call them biologically men? Cosplayers?
 
What about people with Swyer syndrome? Should these women be forced to use the men's room because they have xy chromosomes? Should we call them biologically men? Cosplayers?
Yeah, we went around the mullberry bush several times with examples such as CAIS, although they tend to be in the biological definitions thread.

One thing that was pretty clear was that in some cases like this, there really was no consensus even though a number of posters confidently proclaimed that they absolutely completely totally knew what the answer was while contradicting one of the other posters.

Either way, I think baldly stating that CAIS individuals's biological sex is "observable scientific fact" is not at all clear. Some said they were definitely male, others that they were not male because "sex negation" (?) occurs. I don't remember the actual term used, but it seems to have been made up.

For what it's worth, and in my humble opinion, the DSD/intersex situations are not exactly relevant because individuals who are intersex do not claim to be trans.
 
What about people with Swyer syndrome? Should these women be forced to use the men's room because they have xy chromosomes? Should we call them biologically men? Cosplayers?
We should call them biologically female, because they are.

But this debate really has nothing to do with “intersex” conditions. Any time they are brought up, it is a red herring.
 
We should call them biologically female, because they are.

Why or why not?

But this debate really has nothing to do with “intersex” conditions. Any time they are brought up, it is a red herring.

How so?

If gender depends on genetics, why should these "women" get a pass? These people have been cosplaying without even knowing it.
 
Why or why not?
Because they develop along the female developmental pathway. They are female. They aren’t males who look female.
If gender depends on genetics,
Gender is made up bull ◊◊◊◊, and depends on nothing but your imagination. Sex is determined by genetic expression, but the process is more complicated than just XY. We have been through this before, you’re just pulling a fringe reset. And trans people don’t have DSDs, and DSD people aren’t trans. Conflating the two issues is deeply dishonest.
 
For what it's worth, and in my humble opinion, the DSD/intersex situations are not exactly relevant because individuals who are intersex do not claim to be trans.

Yeah. At the same time, intersex people demonstrate that sometimes biology is messy and not as binary as is claimed.

I think it's most likely there is a biological trigger for gender dysphoria. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean we should treat people as fakirs and criminals.
 
Because they develop along the female developmental pathway. They are female. They aren’t males who look female.

Thank you for your opinion.

Gender is made up bull ◊◊◊◊, and depends on nothing but your imagination.

And yet my imagination is surprisingly accurate when determining the sex/gender of people.

...And trans people don’t have DSDs, and DSD people aren’t trans. Conflating the two issues is deeply dishonest.

That's a bold assertion. Evidence?
 
I just read there may be less than 10 trans athletes in the NCAA out of a half million.

How much of a fuss is this issue?
 
Spend some time on google images and you will find plenty of examples of trans-people who could pass for cis.
Appeals to Google are irrelevant, because a photo is not the test, passing in person is the test.

You can show me any number of photos of transwomen, and I might not be able to tell for every single one of them, but if you stand ANY group of a mix of biological females and transwomen doing their best to pass, and I will tell you which ones are the transwomen. Every . Single . Time.

The only difference when you ask a woman to tell the difference, is they will spot the transwomen much quicker than me.

people in front of me,
Also, dismissing trans-women as cosplaying men doesn't help your argument that this is about science and not bigotry.
Of course, you realise that I talking aboiut self ID TIMs, so you know this is not true!
 
I just read there may be less than 10 trans athletes in the NCAA out of a half million.

How much of a fuss is this issue?
Every transwoman who is allowed to participate in women's sport takes a spot that rightfully belongs to a biological female.

Women have fought for years to be taken seriously in many sports, with regards to funding, acceptance and television coverage. Just as they achieve that, along come a bunch of cheating men such as Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, Nikki Hiltz and Kate Weatherly to steal the limelight from them.

◊◊◊◊ them! ◊◊◊◊ every single one of them!
 
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I have a link. Check it out.

Of course, you will be able to point out to me the place(s) in that link which support your claims, namely

- It was argued gay marriage was a "special right".

- Gays already had all the same rights as heterosexuals because they could marry to opposite gender too.

I'll wait.
 
What about people with Swyer syndrome? Should these women be forced to use the men's room because they have xy chromosomes? Should we call them biologically men? Cosplayers?
The debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different if it were actually about figuring out accommodations for women with Swyer syndrome.

But it's not about that, and you know it.
 

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