Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Not so. In DSM-5, text revised edition, autogynephilia is mentioned as a one word aside twice. Pages 517 and 799, if you want to check. In it's first mention on p517, it is breifly defined as "autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman)."


The more I am reading about this, the more I am inclined to call bull ◊◊◊◊ on every mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊ using the term in this thread. Y'all are so far off with what it is that I don't think it's an accident anymore.
It's mentioned 6 times, in two sections.

In the section on Gender Dysphoria:
Risk and Prognostic Factors:
Gender-variant behavior among individuals with prepubertal-onset gender dysphoria can develop in early preschool age. Studies suggest that a greater intensity of gender nonconformity and an older age at presentation make persistence of gender dysphoria into adolescence and adulthood more likely. A predisposing factor under consideration, especially in individuals with postpubertal-onset gender dysphoria (adolescence, adulthood), includes history of transvestism that may develop into autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman).

In the section on Transvestic Disorder:

Transvestic Disorder

Diagnostic Criteria
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent and intense sexual arousal from cross-dressing, as manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors.
B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
Specify if:
With fetishism: If sexually aroused by fabrics, materials, or garments.
With autogynephilia: If sexually aroused by thoughts or images of self as a woman.
Specify if:
In a controlled environment: This specifier is primarily applicable to individuals living in institutional or other settings where opportunities to cross-dress are restricted.
In full remission: There has been no distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other areas of functioning for at least 5 years while in an uncontrolled environment.

Specifiers:
The presence of fetishism decreases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder. The presence of autogynephilia increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder.

Diagnostic Features
The diagnosis of transvestic disorder does not apply to all individuals who dress as the opposite sex, even those who do so habitually. It applies to individuals whose cross-dressing or thoughts of cross-dressing are always or often accompanied by sexual excitement (Criterion A) and who are emotionally distressed by this pattern or for whom it impairs their social or interpersonal functioning (Criterion B). The cross-dressing may involve only one or two articles of clothing (e.g., for men, it may pertain only to women’s undergarments), or it may involve dressing completely in the inner and outer garments of the other sex and (in men) may include the use of women’s wigs and makeup. Sexual arousal, in its most obvious form of penile erection, may cooccur with cross-dressing in various ways. In younger men, cross-dressing often leads to masturbation, following which any women’s clothing is removed. Older men often learn to avoid masturbating or doing anything to stimulate the penis so that the avoidance of ejaculation allows them to prolong their cross-dressing session. Men and women sometimes complete a crossdressing session by having intercourse with their partners, and some have difficulty maintaining sufficient sexual arousal for sexual activity without cross-dressing (or having private fantasies of cross-dressing). Clinical assessment of distress or impairment, like clinical assessment of transvestic sexual arousal, is usually dependent on the individual’s self-report. The pattern of behavior “purging and acquisition” often signifies the presence of distress in individuals with transvestic disorder. During this behavioral pattern, an individual (usually a man) who has spent a great deal of money on women’s clothes and other apparel (e.g., shoes, wigs) discards the items (i.e., purges them) in an effort to overcome urges to cross-dress, and then begins acquiring a woman’s wardrobe all over again.

Associated Features
Transvestic disorder in men is often accompanied by autogynephilia (i.e., a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman). Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g.,lactation, menstruation), engaging in stereotypically feminine behavior (e.g., knitting), or possessing female anatomy (e.g., breasts).

Here's the catch: When one can convince or coerce society to accept one's sexual arousal and sexual role-play as a "right", and can craft policy to allow one to indulge one's paraphilia... then it no longer impairs one's social functioning.

Thus, Self-ID, and the demands of males who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and encroaching in female spaces in order to reinforce their fantasies.
 
I think what they will do is look at the statistics. If all the top spots are held by transwomen, I think they will change the rules. If that doesn’t happen, then there is no need to change the rules.
Sure, I mean, who cares if females are pushed out of their own sports leagues by males? As long as it's not "too many" females who are harmed by letting males affirm their feelings, right? It's not like females actually count or have value, right?
 
I can, but I hope you're right. Here's how I interpret it:

You believe women's sports should not be required by law to admit transwomen; rather, such organizations should be legally protected if anyone complains about such discrimination.

Is my interpretation of what you believe correct?

I really don't understand your issue. I don't think the government should interfere either way. I've clarified this enough and will not address it with you again.

Fair enough. I have two questions:

If you don't believe it's necessary for sports, why do you believe it's necessary for those other things?

Because in this debate I fall on the side that would categorize transwomen as women. I could make an exception for sports if statistics show it makes a difference, but I want to see that statistical difference first. Some people claim there would be no difference, and I am skeptical of that claim.

How would you distinguish between men and transwomen, for the purpose of applying your policy?

What rule do you suggest?
 
Depends on the point. Are any of those groups trying to exploit loopholes in the law based on their group identity in order to commit crimes? Also, do you not understand the difference between a group defined by immutable characteristics and a group defined by self identification?

Jews are defined by self identification. If I made a website featuring only Jewish criminals and extrapolated their crimes to all Jews, that would be just as bigoted as that website that features trans criminals.

You're pretending that there isn't a problem. And there obviously is.

I'm not pretending anything.

I've heard similar arguments from Trumpers about illegal immigrants. If just one of them is a criminal, that reflects on all of them.
 
Sure, I mean, who cares if females are pushed out of their own sports leagues by males? As long as it's not "too many" females who are harmed by letting males affirm their feelings, right? It's not like females actually count or have value, right?

That's almost the exact opposite of what I said.
 
Thus, Self-ID, and the demands of males who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and encroaching in female spaces in order to reinforce their fantasies.

My understanding is cross-dressers are different from trans-people.
 
Even if said transwoman has a penis and testicles, full beard, and male physique?

What if females object? Do we not have a right to exclude males from spaces where we are naked or vulnerable?

What if they don't have a penis and testicles, full beard, and male physique?
 
It's mentioned 6 times, in two sections.
Yes, you just pasted p517 and 799, that I already mentioned...

DSM-5 does not define it as a fetish, per your claim. It's a mild titilating idea that doesn't even rise to the level of kink. All y'all are loading this idea up with a lot of baggage that doesn't appear to exist in the literature. Even in the 1-3% of male to female transgenders who experience this (linked by yours truly upthread), there is dead zero evidence that it rises beyond a thought in their heads, and they act it out with unwilling others. That's what y'all are shoveling out, and I don't see a word of it outside of some... let's say "unsupportive of trans folk" websites of no academic accreditation.
Here's the catch: When one can convince or coerce society to accept one's sexual arousal and sexual role-play as a "right", and can craft policy to allow one to indulge one's paraphilia... then it no longer impairs one's social functioning.

Thus, Self-ID, and the demands of males who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and encroaching in female spaces in order to reinforce their fantasies.
The thing is, AGP is a self image or thought. It is internal, and doesn't rely on other people's involvement. Do you guys have something to support your extrapolated views?
 
You're adding your own inferences, and unfortunately your inferences are incorrect.

You're treating this as if it's fantasizing about having sex as a female. That's not what it is - I'm female, and when I do have sexual fantasies, I envision myself as being female... but I'm not aroused by the thought of myself as female. Those are very different things.

Think about it this way:
Do you ever fantasize about yourself as a sexual object, and think "OMG, I'm so manly, my penis is so big, and it's such a turn on to imagine thrusting away, and I'm so hot when I'm turned on, just look how hot I am:"?

Yes.

Do you think any women get aroused when they dress up with full make-up, hair done, fancy and expensive dress with nice shoes? When they get all that attention and validation?

Would that be unnatural?
 
I think what they will do is look at the statistics. If all the top spots are held by transwomen, I think they will change the rules. If that doesn’t happen, then there is no need to change the rules.
That's frankly stupid. Males competing against females is unfair, we already know that. We don't need to inflict that unfairness on students in order to find out exactly how unfair it is before we decide whether or not to allow the unfairness to continue.
Rape should not be an accepted part of our prison system. Full stop. It’s not a trans issue, it’s a rape issue.
Fix that FIRST. Until you do fix that, what possible rationale do you have for housing male rapists with female prisoners? None.

But you have no actual idea how to do that, do you?
Child molesters use public bathrooms. Is it better for a child molester to use the boys bathroom where they have access to young boys instead? Why or why not.
Yes, it's better, because the possibile presence of adult males is much more protective than the possible presence of adult females. Plus, the number of heterosexual male predators is larger than the number of homosexual male predators.

You keep proving that you haven't actually thought about these issues in any real depth.
I think I can separate the hysteria from the real issues.
No, you can't. You keep believing that real, demonstrated problems aren't real.
If we’re going to punish all trans-people because some trans-people are child molesters
This has nothing to do with punishing anyone. Cis men aren't being punished by being excluded from women's bathrooms, locker rooms, prisons, and sports.

Nor do you seem to understand that the problem isn't even primarily trans predators, not in the way you likely image. Self ID can incentivize ANY male sexual predator to declare themselves to be trans, regardless of what they really are. What kind of results do you think that incentive structure is going to produce? Even with zero "authentic" trans predators, sexual predation under the cover of trans identity is going to be a problem with self ID.

You really haven't thought any of this through.
 
I really don't understand your issue. I don't think the government should interfere either way. I've clarified this enough and will not address it with you again.
You're equivocating. Equivocation isn't a get out of jail free card.

I asked you a straightforward question about interpretation. I know you can answer straightforward questions without equivocation. I know you can tell me, yes or no, if I have understood your argument. I know you are choosing to obfuscate.
Because in this debate I fall on the side that would categorize transwomen as women.
On what basis do you categorize transwomen as women?
I could make an exception for sports if statistics show it makes a difference, but I want to see that statistical difference first.
We have close to a hundred years of sports statistics showing exactly that difference.

If you really wanted to see those statistics, you would have looked them up already.
Some people claim there would be no difference, and I am skeptical of that claim.



What rule do you suggest?
It's your policy. How are you formulating policy without any rules for how you'll implement it?
 
You're not correcting me though. I have this definition correct and accurate, you're the one who has it wrong.

If you're going to add things I didn't say, then you're not worth engaging with. Please only attribute to me what I actually say.
 
That's frankly stupid. Males competing against females is unfair, we already know that. We don't need to inflict that unfairness on students in order to find out exactly how unfair it is before we decide whether or not to allow the unfairness to continue.

Except we’re only talking about males in your imagination where they’re bulked up, bearded dudes who just claim to be trans. Picture them as Arnold Schwarzenegger in a wig to keep the hysteria going.

Fix that FIRST. Until you do fix that, what possible rationale do you have for housing male rapists with female prisoners? None.

But you have no actual idea how to do that, do you?

That’s right, I don’t know how to solve the problem of prison rape except to abolish private for-profit prisons, and hire more people to supervise the prisoners. Maybe redesigning the prison itself too.

Yes, it's better, because the possibile presence of adult males is much more protective than the possible presence of adult females. Plus, the number of heterosexual male predators is larger than the number of homosexual male predators.

I think the presence of adult females would be enough. If you’re imagining Arnold Schwarzenegger in a wig, he could overpower most male adults too

You keep proving that you haven't actually thought about these issues in any real depth.

I can see hysteria for what it is.

No, you can't. You keep believing that real, demonstrated problems aren't real.

]This has nothing to do with punishing anyone. Cis men aren't being punished by being excluded from women's bathrooms, locker rooms, prisons, and sports.

Trans people need bathrooms and lockers too. If you want to exclude all trans people from bathrooms and locker rooms because some trans people are criminals, that is punishment and bigotry.

Nor do you seem to understand that the problem isn't even primarily trans predators, not in the way you likely image. Self ID can incentivize ANY male sexual predator to declare themselves to be trans, regardless of what they really are. What kind of results do you think that incentive structure is going to produce? Even with zero "authentic" trans predators, sexual predation under the cover of trans identity is going to be a problem with self ID.

If someone is going to enter a bathroom or locker room to sexually assault someone, they won’t need to claim to be trans to do it. They’ll just do it. Announcing a trans status only draws unwanted attention.

You really haven't thought any of this through.

I can see the hysteria and bigotry this topic is steeped in.
 
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Child molesters use public bathrooms. Is it better for a child molester to use the boys bathroom where they have access to young boys instead? Why or why not.

I don't know how it is in America, but here it is absolutely normal for boys under the age of about eight to go into the women's bathroom with their mothers. Often, even if the father is with the family at the time. And this is exactly why. By the time they're old enough to be going into any bathrooms on their own, they have been firmly drilled in the "scream loudly as you run away" procedure.
 
This article has been around for a while now, but it's very explanatory, and perhaps it's time it made its appearance in the thread once again.

AHAHAHAHAHA! i forgot about this guy. Its Professor ◊◊◊◊ Saw! This is the brilliant mind that picked up a reciprocating saw from Home Depot (Sawz-All for the construction guys out there), fitted it with a dildo, and had a guy go to town on his partner with it in front of students! The school asked him "wtf is wrong with you, man?" and cancelled his course.
 
Wow. A website solely dedicated to cherry-picking trans criminals. Nothing bigoted about that.
No, that is the wrong charaterization.
Its actually a website dedicated to warning unsuspecting people about predators, child molesters, and rapists among a cohort of individuals who claim they are just poor, harmless, downtrodden people who only want to pee!
 
You're equivocating. Equivocation isn't a get out of jail free card.

I asked you a straightforward question about interpretation. I know you can answer straightforward questions without equivocation. I know you can tell me, yes or no, if I have understood your argument. I know you are choosing to obfuscate.

There is nothing ambiguous or obfuscating about the answer I have given.

On what basis do you categorize transwomen as women?

By not disagreeing with them.

We have close to a hundred years of sports statistics showing exactly that difference.

I doubt we have a hundred years of statistics comparing trans-women to women in sports, but if we do then the issue is settled, right?

If you really wanted to see those statistics, you would have looked them up already.

I would? The world is huge and complex. I'm not an expert on everything and I don't claim to be.

It's your policy. How are you formulating policy without any rules for how you'll implement it?

Because nobody formulates policy single-handedly. We are social animals, policy is generally arrived at by consensus.
 
No, that is the wrong charaterization.
Its actually a website dedicated to warning unsuspecting people about predators, child molesters, and rapists among a cohort of individuals who claim they are just poor, harmless, downtrodden people who only want to pee!

"They" being the entirety of trans-people, right?
 

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