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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

In the merits hearing, the facts established the presence of Knox and almost certainly Sollecito at the crime scene. For goodness sake, Knox' shoe print in Mez' blood was found on the pillow case under the body. What is it you are unable to see?


Yeah (once again), so what?

Why did they let her leave the country if she was really guilty of murder, and as far as the bloody shoeprint, that doesn't prove anything. Did they ever find her bloody shoes, or did Guede take them with him, or did she leave her footprint, and then hide her shoes? That seems stupid to leave one but not the other, but why am asking you?

You probably think she's stupid no matter what I say so goodbye.


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It is sad how America turns criminals into heroes, even installing a crime family into the White House. There is nothing heroic in getting away with murder IMV. I note that Kohberger has now officially joined the ranks of Jody Arias (in her murder of Travis Alexander) and Knox & Sollecito in having turned off his communications signals (phone, GPS, etc) for the duration of the crime, probably thinking it conceals their tracks. But their absence of phone signals only serves to highlight they went incommunicado for the duration of the murders. I think Kohberger is claiming he went off the radar to 'look at stars'. (Even he has his fans. :rolleyes:)

It would have been so much better for Knox to have accepted a manslaughter-type deal; would have been out within five years, free to start a new life with a clean sheet. As it it is, the fact of her being present at the crime scene, having Meredith Kercher's blood on her hands and covering up for Guede remains as legal fact in perpetuity. Not to mention her conviction for trying to pin the crime on Lumumba.

What is sick in our society is criminals cashing in on their crimes and even being allowed to run for presidency, as though it is just a minor glitch. Whoops, I accidentally raped someone. Never mind.



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I'm commenting here on the legal aspects of the statement in Vixen's post that I highlighted. Vixen's statement is absurd and false and reflects a severe misunderstanding of Italian law, due to an apparent confusion with US or possibly UK law. I discuss that below. I hope that my discussion will remedy any reader's confusion resulting from Vixen's highlighted statement.

Some other statements in Vixen's post are false but other posters have commented on them, so for brevity, I will not discuss them in this post.

It is critical for those wishing to understand the Knox - Sollecito case to recognize that only Italian and ECHR law applies to the case (excepting, for example, matters such as a hypothetical request for extradition of Knox from the US to Italy, which would be covered by US law, including the US-Italy extradition treaty, or a hypothetical lawsuit launched by a non-US resident against Knox, a US resident (and citizen), which would be covered by US law).

First, Vixen states (or implies) that Knox could have accepted a "deal" where she would have convinced the prosecutor to charge her with manslaughter rather than murder, and that she would then plead guilty to the manslaughter charge. This kind of plea deal would be a lawful possibility in the US (I am not sure about other countries, such as the UK) if accepted by the US trial court judge. However, such plea deals are not at all lawful in Italy. In fact, under Italian law, a defendant is not allowed to plead "guilty" - there are no such initial pleas of guilt or innocence by a defendant as there are in the US or some other countries.

However, the Italian judicial system has instead a mechanism called (in translation) "abbreviated trial" or "fast-track trial" in which only the evidence - for and against the defendant - available at the preliminary hearing is used for the trial (conducted by the preliminary hearing judge, rather than by a panel), and if the defendant is convicted on the basis of that evidence, his sentence as would be determined by a regular trial is reduced by 1/3. The fast-track trial is not a procedure adopted by someone who wishes to demonstrate their innocence by a presentation of evidence not available in the trial records at the time of the preliminary hearing. Thus, Knox and Sollecito each chose to have a regular trial in order to establish their refutation of the prosecution's case. Guede did not, because the nature of the evidence against him gave him no hope of refuting the prosecution case.

Another aspect of Vixen's statement that is false is the confusion of the classification of crimes in the US judicial system (and perhaps in the UK and other similar systems) with that in the Italian system. In the US system, a wrongful death may be classified, in general, as murder (1st degree or 2nd degree) or manslaughter (voluntary or involuntary). (Note that there can be variation in terminology and number of classes from state to state.) The classes of charges of wrongful death depends primarily on the presumed intent of the defendant, and generally a prosecutor can level more than one class of charge against a defendant - that way, if the jury believes that the prosecution has proved its case except for establishing intent, the jury can lawfully convict on the lesser crime. A good summary of the US homicide classification system may be found at:

https://www.runsensible.com/blog/murder-vs-manslaughter-difference-examples-and-sentencing/

The classification of homicide in the Italian justice system is very different from the US (and possibly UK) system. In Italy, there are three types of homicide: Murder (CP Article 575), Death or Injury as an Unintended Consequence of Another Crime (CP Article 586), and Negligent homicide [a form of manslaughter, including, by specific mention, negligent or unlawful road or water transport events resuling in a fatality (CP Articles 589 and 589-bis). The minimum sentence for murder is imprisonment for 21 years, and murder committed as an act associated with the aggravating circumstance of sexual violence or threat [rape] (CP Article 609-bis) is subject to a longer sentence. (The various aggavating circumstances associated with murder are listed, generally by CP Article number, in CP Article 576.) The sentence for rape itself is imprisonment for six to twelve years. See:


In summary, there would be no lawful way for a prosecutor to charge anyone involved with the murder/rape of Kercher with "manslaughter" (CP Article 589 or 589-bis.) Nor would CP Article 586 be a lawful charge, because it was clear from the forensic autopsy that Kercher's wounds were intended.
 
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Good heavens, No, but I’m not surprised. Evil does as evil is. All the haters predicted this future to AK as their ill founded logic proposed. It seems Italian law conspired with the devil to conquer good and in some way succeeded. Guede should still be jailed. Meanwhile AK has carved a future of good for herself and she is now an iconic person central to a theme of rising above victimhood to became a force for good. History has proved those who argued for her innocence on this site to be correct. But then we always knew the absurdity of this grave injustice to a young woman and her boyfriend, didn’t we?
 
Are you aware of Guede's likely upcoming trial for rape and beating up his girlfriend after being released from prison? He's been informed that the investigation is over and he's been notified that he can present his defense. That usually doesn't happen if the investigation hasn't found grounds to proceed with charges.
Good heavens, No, but I’m not surprised. Evil does as evil is. All the haters predicted this future to AK as their ill founded logic proposed. It seems Italian law conspired with the devil to conquer good and in some way succeeded. Guede should still be jailed. Meanwhile AK has carved a future of good for herself and she is now an iconic person central to a theme of rising above victimhood to became a force for good. History has proved those who argued for her innocence on this site to be correct. But then we always knew the absurdity of this grave injustice to a young woman and her boyfriend, didn’t we?
 
It is sad how America turns criminals into heroes, even installing a crime family into the White House. There is nothing heroic in getting away with murder IMV. I note that Kohberger has now officially joined the ranks of Jody Arias (in her murder of Travis Alexander) and Knox & Sollecito in having turned off his communications signals (phone, GPS, etc) for the duration of the crime, probably thinking it conceals their tracks. But their absence of phone signals only serves to highlight they went incommunicado for the duration of the murders. I think Kohberger is claiming he went off the radar to 'look at stars'. (Even he has his fans. :rolleyes:)

It would have been so much better for Knox to have accepted a manslaughter-type deal; would have been out within five years, free to start a new life with a clean sheet. As it it is, the fact of her being present at the crime scene, having Meredith Kercher's blood on her hands and covering up for Guede remains as legal fact in perpetuity. Not to mention her conviction for trying to pin the crime on Lumumba.

What is sick in our society is criminals cashing in on their crimes and even being allowed to run for presidency, as though it is just a minor glitch. Whoops, I accidentally raped someone. Never mind.



.
Oh for goodness sake. Crawl back into your lair and stop being a liar. Tell me about all those crimes AK was destined to commit after her release. My count…probably one parking ticket at most, but more likely nothing. Did AK change her personality?
 
Vixen doesn’t know when she lost. Is she the black knight in the Monty Python skit?
Vixen quit whilst your loss is ahead of your bitterness at losing. Your “nothingness” is eating your sad soul. It’s ok to be wrong Vixen, and admitting it elevates you. Try it. You might find friends are nice to have around you.
 
I'm commenting here on the legal aspects of the statement in Vixen's post that I highlighted. Vixen's statement is absurd and false and reflects a severe misunderstanding of Italian law, due to an apparent confusion with US or possibly UK law. I discuss that below. I hope that my discussion will remedy any reader's confusion resulting from Vixen's highlighted statement.

Some other statements in Vixen's post are false but other posters have commented on them, so for brevity, I will not discuss them in this post.

It is critical for those wishing to understand the Knox - Sollecito case to recognize that only Italian and ECHR law applies to the case (excepting, for example, matters such as a hypothetical request for extradition of Knox from the US to Italy, which would be covered by US law, including the US-Italy extradition treaty, or a hypothetical lawsuit launched by a non-US resident against Knox, a US resident (and citizen), which would be covered by US law).

First, Vixen states (or implies) that Knox could have accepted a "deal" where she would have convinced the prosecutor to charge her with manslaughter rather than murder, and that she would then plead guilty to the manslaughter charge. This kind of plea deal would be a lawful possibility in the US (I am not sure about other countries, such as the UK) if accepted by the US trial court judge. However, such plea deals are not at all lawful in Italy. In fact, under Italian law, a defendant is not allowed to plead "guilty" - there are no such initial pleas of guilt or innocence by a defendant as there are in the US or some other countries.

However, the Italian judicial system has instead a mechanism called (in translation) "abbreviated trial" or "fast-track trial" in which only the evidence - for and against the defendant - available at the preliminary hearing is used for the trial (conducted by the preliminary hearing judge, rather than by a panel), and if the defendant is convicted on the basis of that evidence, his sentence as would be determined by a regular trial is reduced by 1/3. The fast-track trial is not a procedure adopted by someone who wishes to demonstrate their innocence by a presentation of evidence not available in the trial records at the time of the preliminary hearing. Thus, Knox and Sollecito each chose to have a regular trial in order to establish their refutation of the prosecution's case. Guede did not, because the nature of the evidence against him gave him no hope of refuting the prosecution case.

Another aspect of Vixen's statement that is false is the confusion of the classification of crimes in the US judicial system (and perhaps in the UK and other similar systems) with that in the Italian system. In the US system, a wrongful death may be classified, in general, as murder (1st degree or 2nd degree) or manslaughter (voluntary or involuntary). (Note that there can be variation in terminology and number of classes from state to state.) The classes of charges of wrongful death depends primarily on the presumed intent of the defendant, and generally a prosecutor can level more than one class of charge against a defendant - that way, if the jury believes that the prosecution has proved its case except for establishing intent, the jury can lawfully convict on the lesser crime. A good summary of the US homicide classification system may be found at:

https://www.runsensible.com/blog/murder-vs-manslaughter-difference-examples-and-sentencing/

The classification of homicide in the Italian justice system is very different from the US (and possibly UK) system. In Italy, there are three types of homicide: Murder (CP Article 575), Death or Injury as an Unintended Consequence of Another Crime (CP Article 586), and Negligent homicide [a form of manslaughter, including, by specific mention, negligent or unlawful road or water transport events resuling in a fatality (CP Articles 589 and 589-bis). The minimum sentence for murder is imprisonment for 21 years, and murder committed as an act associated with the aggravating circumstance of sexual violence or threat [rape] (CP Article 609-bis) is subject to a longer sentence. (The various aggavating circumstances associated with murder are listed, generally by CP Article number, in CP Article 576.) The sentence for rape itself is imprisonment for six to twelve years. See:


In summary, there would be no lawful way for a prosecutor to charge anyone involved with the murder/rape of Kercher with "manslaughter" (CP Article 589 or 589-bis.) Nor would CP Article 586 be a lawful charge, because it was clear from the forensic autopsy that Kercher's wounds were intended.
A person who never sees themself outside of their subjective state is a person who can learn nothing. The horse is dead. The flesh has rotted and yet we flog the bones. This case was a travesty. A handful of people choose to further the pain of AK and RS to their own end. How disgraceful.
 
A person who never sees themself outside of their subjective state is a person who can learn nothing. The horse is dead. The flesh has rotted and yet we flog the bones. This case was a travesty. A handful of people choose to further the pain of AK and RS to their own end. How disgraceful.


O-k-aaaay...

<Fx: backs out of the room very s-l-o-w-l-y.....>




:wackyno:

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The pair were found guilty in a criminal court of law, it was a fair trial and the convictions only overturned due to backchanneling by the US State Department and even Trump giving Knox a bung in legal fees. The acquittal was based on a trumped up technicality but the evidence during the trial was sound. In fact, it seems the strongest influence was Sollecito's barrister Bongiorno's strong mafia contacts and getting the court chambers changed from the Fifth Division (Serious Crime) to a lesser Number One Court specialising in business law.

But you have no evidence of any of this.
 
Mignini left the case in 2011 (maybe only Sagnotti is responsible for the following Cassazione appeal?):
I'm unable to read the full article because of a paywall. I can read and translate the headlines and the first paragraph.

Does Mignini, according to the article, say anything of consequence, besides that Amanda Knox has "matured", "has become a wife", and is now "the mother of two children"?

Mignini is quoted in the first paragraph as saying "Ho chiesto io la condanna di Amanda Knox al processo nel 2011, e da allora di indiscrezioni ne ho ricevute tantissime; ma me le tengo per me: le mie valutazioni sono quelle del 2011". Google translated: "I asked for Amanda Knox's conviction at the trial in 2011, and since then I have received many rumors; but I keep them to myself: my evaluations are those of 2011". I understand that to mean he still believes that she is guilty on all the original charges of murder/rape and calunnia. Am I correct in my understanding? (According to Reverso, "indiscrezioni" may translate to: rumors, indiscretions, leaks, or unconfirmed reports.)
 
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I'm commenting here on the legal aspects of the statement in Vixen's post that I highlighted. Vixen's statement is absurd and false and reflects a severe misunderstanding of Italian law, due to an apparent confusion with US or possibly UK law. I discuss that below. I hope that my discussion will remedy any reader's confusion resulting from Vixen's highlighted statement.

Some other statements in Vixen's post are false but other posters have commented on them, so for brevity, I will not discuss them in this post.

It is critical for those wishing to understand the Knox - Sollecito case to recognize that only Italian and ECHR law applies to the case (excepting, for example, matters such as a hypothetical request for extradition of Knox from the US to Italy, which would be covered by US law, including the US-Italy extradition treaty, or a hypothetical lawsuit launched by a non-US resident against Knox, a US resident (and citizen), which would be covered by US law).

First, Vixen states (or implies) that Knox could have accepted a "deal" where she would have convinced the prosecutor to charge her with manslaughter rather than murder, and that she would then plead guilty to the manslaughter charge. This kind of plea deal would be a lawful possibility in the US (I am not sure about other countries, such as the UK) if accepted by the US trial court judge. However, such plea deals are not at all lawful in Italy. In fact, under Italian law, a defendant is not allowed to plead "guilty" - there are no such initial pleas of guilt or innocence by a defendant as there are in the US or some other countries.

However, the Italian judicial system has instead a mechanism called (in translation) "abbreviated trial" or "fast-track trial" in which only the evidence - for and against the defendant - available at the preliminary hearing is used for the trial (conducted by the preliminary hearing judge, rather than by a panel), and if the defendant is convicted on the basis of that evidence, his sentence as would be determined by a regular trial is reduced by 1/3. The fast-track trial is not a procedure adopted by someone who wishes to demonstrate their innocence by a presentation of evidence not available in the trial records at the time of the preliminary hearing. Thus, Knox and Sollecito each chose to have a regular trial in order to establish their refutation of the prosecution's case. Guede did not, because the nature of the evidence against him gave him no hope of refuting the prosecution case.

Another aspect of Vixen's statement that is false is the confusion of the classification of crimes in the US judicial system (and perhaps in the UK and other similar systems) with that in the Italian system. In the US system, a wrongful death may be classified, in general, as murder (1st degree or 2nd degree) or manslaughter (voluntary or involuntary). (Note that there can be variation in terminology and number of classes from state to state.) The classes of charges of wrongful death depends primarily on the presumed intent of the defendant, and generally a prosecutor can level more than one class of charge against a defendant - that way, if the jury believes that the prosecution has proved its case except for establishing intent, the jury can lawfully convict on the lesser crime. A good summary of the US homicide classification system may be found at:

https://www.runsensible.com/blog/murder-vs-manslaughter-difference-examples-and-sentencing/

The classification of homicide in the Italian justice system is very different from the US (and possibly UK) system. In Italy, there are three types of homicide: Murder (CP Article 575), Death or Injury as an Unintended Consequence of Another Crime (CP Article 586), and Negligent homicide [a form of manslaughter, including, by specific mention, negligent or unlawful road or water transport events resuling in a fatality (CP Articles 589 and 589-bis). The minimum sentence for murder is imprisonment for 21 years, and murder committed as an act associated with the aggravating circumstance of sexual violence or threat [rape] (CP Article 609-bis) is subject to a longer sentence. (The various aggavating circumstances associated with murder are listed, generally by CP Article number, in CP Article 576.) The sentence for rape itself is imprisonment for six to twelve years. See:


In summary, there would be no lawful way for a prosecutor to charge anyone involved with the murder/rape of Kercher with "manslaughter" (CP Article 589 or 589-bis.) Nor would CP Article 586 be a lawful charge, because it was clear from the forensic autopsy that Kercher's wounds were intended.


I was not referring to US-style plea deals, which is simply pleading guilty to avoid a trial. Plea deals are illegal in Italy, as it is in the UK.

I was pointing out that the near knee-jerk fashion of automatically denying having anything to do with a crime is not necessarily a good tactic especially if evidence turns up that shows you were being less than truthful.

If someone commits a crime and willingly tells police what happened and how the situation came about then there is leeway in fitting the appropriate charge, for example, self-defence, diminished responsibility, etc.


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That does help, thank you.

The Cronaca article quotes Mignini saying:

She came to me with a twig; I didn't want to welcome her but then I accepted, something like this had never happened to me: she wanted to talk to me face to face and I appreciated her courage and her frankness. This girl has matured, she has become a wife and mother of two children.

as well as the statement that he hasn't changed his beliefs on the case since 2011, despite rumors (or unconfirmed reports) he has heard.

I suggest that pages 246 - 254 (hard-bound edition) of Knox's memoir Free: My Search for Meaning gives a more informative account of her meeting with Mignini, in which the prison priest, Don Saulo, was present as a mediator. In Knox's account, Mignini acknowledges her courage in seeking to meet with him but is not moved to express any feelings of responsibility or regret for her wrongful provisional convictions or detention. He claims to have only followed the evidence provided to him by the police (who, of course, were under his command during the investigation, according to Italian law). He states that the female police hated her and targeted her, but his prosecution of her was merely his duty. She quotes him as stating that knowing her now he would not prosecute her, but refuses to say that she was innocent of the original charges.
 
No, you're not. All you're interested in is in anything that confirms your bias. You ignore everything else that proves you wrong.


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I was going to post the proof from the 2015 motivations report, but I'm getting tired in reposting and reposting it, only to have Vixen and other guilters ignore what the acquitting court actually wrote.

Chapter 9 of their report, said that they were going to list 'facts alleged by the defence', as well as 'facts alleged by the prosecution,' in that case the Crini prosecution. The ISC panel then listed those 'facts' as alleged.... one of which was the 'fact' that Knox and Sollecito had been there that night, at the time of the murder.

They then concluded their report saying that, regardless of it being alleged that they'd been there, that 'even if what the prosecution alleged had been true', that that still did not overcome the real issue - that no forensic evidence of either of the accused, save for Guede, was found in the murder room itself. They then concluded that that should have been an insurmountable barrier to the conviction which the Nencini court had made.... so, then, the 2015 ISC overturned the conviction, acquitting the pair.

There. Reposted for the umpteenth time, only to be ignored again, because guilters cannot read the plain text of the motivations report, or that they simply quote out of context from the 'list' that the acquitting court had made of the 'prosecution facts'.

Which, even if true, still was not enough to have convicted RS and/or RS.
 
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I was not referring to US-style plea deals, which is simply pleading guilty to avoid a trial. Plea deals are illegal in Italy, as it is in the UK.

I was pointing out that the near knee-jerk fashion of automatically denying having anything to do with a crime is not necessarily a good tactic especially if evidence turns up that shows you were being less than truthful.

If someone commits a crime and willingly tells police what happened and how the situation came about then there is leeway in fitting the appropriate charge, for example, self-defence, diminished responsibility, etc.


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Your about-face in denying the ignorant misstatement in your post is not at all convincing.

Your current position continues to ignore the fact that a person with no knowledge of a crime cannot give credible information about it.

You fail to acknowledge that it is the responsibility of the police and prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt based upon credible evidence, that someone is guilty of a crime, according to Italian law.
 
Your about-face in denying the ignorant misstatement in your post is not at all convincing.

Your current position continues to ignore the fact that a person with no knowledge of a crime cannot give credible information about it.

You fail to acknowledge that it is the responsibility of the police and prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt based upon credible evidence, that someone is guilty of a crime, according to Italian law.

It has always been the case the burden of proof is on the prosecution. In the context of Mignini knowing - or at least having a jolly good idea of - the culpability of the pair, given Knox' great need to talk but yet her parents turned up and demanded the usual 'deny everything' routine. The point being it is not contributing to Knox' mental health being unable to freely talk about the terrible crimes committed that night, that was the context being discussed. Given the pair premeditated the attack, switching off their phones simultaneously and each carrying a knife to the premises, with Knox hiding Sollecito's kitchen knife in her bag, laying in wait for Mez until she returned home, and with their footprints in luminol, his DNA on the victim's underwear under her body under a sheet, not to mention Sollecito's footprint on the bathmat, it seemed pretty pointless to deny they were ever there. It could be argued Knox and Guede, in their un-fully developed adolescent brains, were cynically led on by Sollecito with his fantasies of killing vampires and his knife fetish - a highly disturbed young man and who showed complete sang-froid throughout the whole process, but having been shut down by Mom, Knox had to play along with the ridiculous, 'I was framed' nonsense.

Had Knox told all, and it was Mignini's perception she wanted to talk, then she and Guede could have been seen as the lesser accomplices to Sollecito's chilling 'icy cold' psychopathy.

Nothing to do with plea deals.


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