Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

In both directions, or just one way?

Eta: in fairness, I agree that a male shouldn't be competing with females, no matter what they identify as. But Trump is virtue signaling just as hard as anyone else. He never indicated that he thinks of women as anything more than... let's say receptacles, so any pretense of fairness and good will is some bull ◊◊◊◊, right there. He's doing it to be an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

I think the cutting of funding in this case is fair.

It was never just about letting Will Thomas compete with girls. Its also about the abysmal behaviour of UPenn in the circumstances surrounding the issues... allowing Thomas to use the women's locker facilities, and the worst aspect of all, threatening the other team members with expulsion if they dare to complain, and with termination of scholarships if they speak publicly. That is reprehensible behaviour for an institution such as a University, historically the foremost bastions of free speech.

 

[Manopolus]

Populism ≠ Progressivism

Correction: Populism > Progressivism

Not just "is greater than" but the point is that one is traditionally considered a subcategory of the other. And that's not a qualitative judgment. It's just that populism includes several other political ideas.

And now people want to jam the other so full of unrelated things so that it has to include its own new subcategories, I guess. But the same people won't accept that either, because the point is to jam us all into one big group in order to denigrate us all at once.

I was never fond of genres. I'm particularly unfond of genres that shift their categorical inclusions to the point that the genre-fication is completely useless. Once a category is stretched to become the exact same thing as another genre, it's entirely pointless. Damn. Why can't we just say what we mean instead of playing the naming game? The categories are pretty much always too broad to begin with, and then someone keeps adding to them.

As long as it was historical, it was fairly stable. Making it active again is no reason to destabilize the meaning, because the people who originally brought it up very much meant it in the historical sense even this time.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm embarrassed on your behalf that you typed this out and thought it made a good point.

If you'd a modicum of intellectual integrity, you'd retract your false claims about me.

They are not false claims. Here are some of your defenses of TRAs

To be clear, because I think Glenn v. Brumby was rightly decided then I must support ALL trans-rights initiatives, no matter how extreme or harmful.

Trans rights activists (TRAs) have anti-discrimination in employment as one of their major talking points.

To clarify once again, my (centrist, non-partisan) framing is that we should take these issues one at a time instead of making it all into a team sport where admitting the truth or utility of any one "TRA" talking point means scoring an own goal.

 

[smartcooky]

Correction: Populism > Progressivism

Not just "is greater than" but the point is that one is traditionally considered a subcategory of the other. And that's not a qualitative judgment. It's just that populism includes several other political ideas.

I completely disagree with your characterization

 

[Matthew Best]

It's a slur now but I don't think the OG radfems like Jane Clare Jones would have a problem with admitting that radical materialist feminism excludes males by design, because "male people as a class benefit from exploitation of the bodies and labour of female people as a class."

That may be true, but most people who are described as "terfs" aren't radical feminists. Some of them aren't even feminists at all.

 

[smartcooky]

Got confused with Trans Rights Activists, meaning Trans Radical Acticists. Too many acronyms, and they seem interchangable My bad, carry on.

Trans-gender Rights Campaigner: an individual who advocates for the rights and equal treatment transgender people on areas such as housing and emplyment (there does not seem to be a common acronym for this group, but TRC would be useful here).

Trans-gender Radical Activist: an individual who supports the aims of TRCs, but additionally, supports extreme additional measures that, if implemented, would abrogate the rights of all biological women, and who are prepared to employ intimidation and violence to acheive their goals.

Hope this helps.

 

[d4m10n]

They are not false claims. Here are some of your defenses of TRAs

Are you serious with this?

The first is a reductio, as I have already explained.

The second is a statement of fact which you have done nothing to question or refute.

The third is my approach to issues, not activists.

Again, I ask where I defended "TRAs" either individually or as a group.

Again (again) I ask that you consider retracting your false claims about me.

 

[Thermal]

Trans-gender Rights Campaigner: an individual who advocates for the rights and equal treatment transgender people on areas such as housing and emplyment (there does not seem to be a common acronym for this group, but TRC would be useful here).

Trans-gender Radical Activist: an individual who supports the aims of TRCs, but additionally, supports extreme additional measures that, if implemented, would abrogate the rights of all biological women, and who are prepared to employ intimidation and violence to acheive their goals.

Hope this helps.

That's how I thought TRA was being used here, but I thought I heard Trans Rights Activist as well, which would ideologically align with the TRC above?

 

[d4m10n]

Has anyone here linked to (or looked at) the Sullivan report yet?

“This should not be seen as a zero-sum game between characteristics. We can and should collect data on both [sex and gender identity]. Acknowledging sex does not erase gender identity or vice versa.”

Biological sex erased from official data on health, crime and educati…

archived 19 Mar 2025 20:40:32 UTC

archive.ph

 

[angrysoba]

So you prefer a definition that was force-fed to you by a politically polarized press, in other words... one that they constructed FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE of profiting monetarily from a divided population?

Uh oh! Force-teaming alert!

Dude, this is how language works. Not by diligent study of the dictionary, but by observing how it is used in the real world. And by most approximations, progressivism absolutely does include, even emphasize, social issues.

 

[angrysoba]

You're trying to have it both ways... or if you like, trying to apply a zero sum game. You critique the bad things, but present it all as some kind of balance with the good things, and you think that makes TRAs the good guys.

I see it differently. Even if the Nazis did make the trains run on time; even if they began the world's first animal welfare campaign; even if they were one of the first to start anti-smoking campaigns, they get ZERO credit for those good things because none of them in any way compensate for human medical experimentation or the genocide of the Jews.

I apply the same philosophy to TRAs. They get ZERO credit from me for the good things they support becasue the bad things they demand such as right to self-ID, forcing biological women, against their will, to accept biological males into sex segregated spaces, are so bad, they obliterate the good.

One of the worst Godwins ever given that one of the infamous book-burnings by the Nazis took place at a library of books dedicated to such issues as alternative sex and gender expressions.

 

[angrysoba]

They are not false claims. Here are some of your defenses of TRAs

By your own claims, Damion was putting forward a standard equality argument which YOU also explicitly supported.

If Damion is a TRA by YOUR definition, then so are you.

 

[smartcooky]

Has anyone here linked to (or looked at) the Sullivan report yet?

“This should not be seen as a zero-sum game between characteristics. We can and should collect data on both [sex and gender identity]. Acknowledging sex does not erase gender identity or vice versa.”

Biological sex erased from official data on health, crime and educati…

archived 19 Mar 2025 20:40:32 UTC

archive.ph

TRA's will fight tooth and nail to prevent implementation of any of the Sullivan report because their whole objective is to blur the lines between sex and gender, so that ultimately, you will not be able to examine any official document and determine the biological sex of any individual.

If I ran the asylum, government departments such as NHS, Police, Fire, Ambulance. Prisons etc, as well as anyone submitting information to any government department (such as a doctor's or dentist's office), should be required to collect and submit both the biological sex and the gender identity of any individual they are dealing with. That way, statistics won't get skewed, and important medical diagnoses and tests won't get missed.

 

[Elaedith]

Has anyone here linked to (or looked at) the Sullivan report yet?

“This should not be seen as a zero-sum game between characteristics. We can and should collect data on both [sex and gender identity]. Acknowledging sex does not erase gender identity or vice versa.”

Biological sex erased from official data on health, crime and educati…

archived 19 Mar 2025 20:40:32 UTC

archive.ph

Yes, I've been looking at the report itself and it is very interesting reading (232) pages long.

Among the recommendations:
The default target of any question on sex should be natal/biological sex
Sex should not be conflated with gender identity - information on gender identity should be collected separately if needed
The word 'gender' should be avoided as it has multiple meanings
The NHS should stop issuing new NHS numbers and new 'gender' markers to people who transition
Questions on sex or gender should not contain an additional category for people with DSDs or 'intersex' conditions. 'People with DSD have a sex, they are not a third sex or sexless category, and to imply that they are is likely to cause offence.'
Data on sex should routinely be collected 'in all administrative data and in-service process data, including statistics collected within health and care settings and by police, courts and prisons’ as well as research*
'We recommend against using the phrase ‘sex assigned at birth’. This phrasing is inaccurate and misleading, as sex is determined at conception and typically observed in utero or at birth'

This is already shaping up to be the Cass equivalent in data collection and reporting.

*I seem to remember LondonJohn being rather insulting when I suggested that recording sex was important, for example in crime statistics.

The Observer view
"The idea that the reality of people’s biological sex is immaterial in society, and that it can be replaced by the concept of gender identity – whether someone feels male or female – is a highly contested belief system that does not reflect British equalities law. Yet in recent years, it has come to dominate sections of the public sphere spanning institutions as diverse as the NHS, the police and universities, as activists have sought to impose this personal belief on everyone."

 

[d4m10n]

Questions on sex or gender should not contain an additional category for people with DSDs or 'intersex' conditions.

I cannot think of any way to make this make sense, at least if we're still talking about the NHS. Doctors need to know (for example) whether a given patient will have different internal structures than expected by external body habitus, without having to x-ray every time.

Anyhow, the other recommendations seem pretty straightforward and unobjectionable.

 

[Elaedith]

I cannot think of any way to make this make sense, at least if we're still talking about the NHS. Doctors need to know (for example) whether a given patient will have different internal structures than expected by external body habitus, without having to x-ray every time.

Anyhow, the other recommendations seem pretty straightforward and unobjectionable.

"Asking for this information would need to be via a distinct question, not part of a question on sex or gender identity and is likely to be justified only in the context of specialist medical studies." p 5 recommendation 8.

 

[Abooga]

Any who publish? I'd be interested in seeing what progressivism looks like without intersectionalism.

Have a look for example at Prof. Kathleen Stock´s writings. She´s one of the most lucid writers about this issue.

 

[Rolfe]

If you can, read the thread. And if you haven't already, read the thread linked in the first tweet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903883694567309516

 

[d4m10n]

Have a look for example at Prof. Kathleen Stock´s writings. She´s one of the most lucid writers about this issue.

I've quoted Stock several times upthread; she is non-intersectional but also does not self-identify as progressive.

 

[Ziggurat]

Again, I ask where I defended "TRAs" either individually or as a group.

You attacked someone for attacking TRAs. I'm not sure what distinction you think exists here, but basically everyone else took that as a defense of TRAs. If everyone interpreted it that way but you didn't intend it that way, perhaps you didn't communicate properly.