Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Manopolus]

If you care about women, then you care about the things they care about.

Umm... no.

I can think of all sorts of things which close friends and family have been really into that I couldn't care less about. None of your proposed correlations are proving to be meaningful. I'm pretty sure that doesn't even qualify as being mildly callous.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I've always thought sports wielded too much weight. Not just at the school level, but at the college level too---when academic scores are sacrificed to ensure that the sportsballer relying on their body rather than their mind gets to keep playing, the entire point of having them there is lost.

 

[Hercules56]

Again, Gays just want us to accept them for who they ARE, and not discriminate against them for who they ARE.

Trans want us to accept their CHANGE, and accept that their CHANGE to a woman or a man is accurate and true.

Very big difference.

 

[catsmate]

A lot of folks on the Left act like the struggle for Gay Rights is exactly the same as the push for Trans rights, and perhaps trans rights is simply a continuation of the war that gay rights won a decade ago.

I, disagree.

In my view, the issue of Gay rights is VERY different than the issue of Trans rights.

Gays, wanted the right to be who they ARE, and not suffer discrimination for it.

They are attracted to people of the same sex, and they fought for the right to not suffer discrimination in housing, education, employment public services, marriage, because of it.

Trans rights, well, its a little more tricky.

Trans persons wanted to identify as a different sex than what they were born. And they want everyone to be FORCED to recognize it.

They want society to be FORCED to recognize their change in sex identity, and be punished if they do not.

More importantly, they want to change themselves, and undergo surgery and hormone therapies, to change themselves in a way that makes them feel like they have changed their sex, even if the science clearly shows they have done no such thing.

They may appear more like a woman superficially, but on the inside, genetically, skeletally, their organs, they have not changed their sex.

This.....this is very different than what Gays asked from society. Gays have not asked us to recognize any changes they have made. They simply want to be who they obviously are and not have to hide it.

As do transfolk. You may disagree but that's basically it.

 

[catsmate]

I've always thought sports wielded too much weight. Not just at the school level, but at the college level too---when academic scores are sacrificed to ensure that the sportsballer relying on their body rather than their mind gets to keep playing, the entire point of having them there is lost.

That's a USAian thing.

 

[Thermal]

Again, Gays just want us to accept them for who they ARE, and not discriminate against them for who they ARE.

Trans want us to accept their CHANGE, and accept that their CHANGE to a woman or a man is accurate and true.

Very big difference.

Trans people often say it was always what they were, they just didn't wrap their head around the foreign concept till later. Much like a gay dude maybe doesn't come out of the closet till later in his life.

The distinction you are making is in YOUR interpretation, not THEIRS. You basically say they can ◊◊◊◊ right off cuz your thoughts about their identities matter, not their own.

 

[theprestige]

Umm... no.

I can think of all sorts of things which close friends and family have been really into that I couldn't care less about. None of your proposed correlations are proving to be meaningful. I'm pretty sure that doesn't even qualify as being mildly callous.

Sorry, "care" was probably the wrong word. What I meant was something more like if you care about someone, you acknowledge that the things that are serious to them are indeed serious things for them, and not dismiss those things as unimportant or inconsequential.

 

[theprestige]

i’m sure others will take issue with some of the more questionable assertions here.

but of all the things you wrote about i’m a little curious why them wanting to change themselves, take hormones, get surgery, etc to change to their appearance and make themselves feel better about their bodies something you take issue with

There's already a thread for this, so I'll respond there.

 

[Hercules56]

Trans people often say it was always what they were, they just didn't wrap their head around the foreign concept till later. Much like a gay dude maybe doesn't come out of the closet till later in his life.

The distinction you are making is in YOUR interpretation, not THEIRS. You basically say they can ◊◊◊◊ right off cuz your thoughts about their identities matter, not their own.

I should accept who they are, not who they think they should be or want to be.

That is my view.

For that matter I do not support discrimination against them in housing, education, employment, public accomodations.

But again that is not what this topic is about.

 

[theprestige]

i’m sure others will take issue with some of the more questionable assertions here.

but of all the things you wrote about i’m a little curious why them wanting to change themselves, take hormones, get surgery, etc to change to their appearance and make themselves feel better about their bodies something you take issue with

While I generally don't take issue with people doing elective surgery and hormone treatment at their own expense, I do take issue with elective medicine being subsidized by the taxpayer, or being an entitlement in public policy.

So that takes care of mentally healthy folks who just want to do something fun or interesting with their bodies.

On the mental health side of the question, I have some concerns. The main one is that we don't have a lot of good medical research telling us that gender-affirming care and social transition are the best treatment for gender dysphoria, autogynephilia, et al.

Meanwhile, there are a number of mental health conditions where we would absolutely not consider enablement or affirmation of delusion to be good or humane medicine.

We don't tell the paranoid schizophrenic that he really is being gangstalked, and is right to take extreme precautions against the stalkers all around him. We don't tell the manic-depressive or bipolar individual that it's okay for them to go off their medication because their mania is cool and productive and who they really are. We don't tell people who have other kinds of body identity disorder that it's okay if they want to go ahead and lop off the offending body part.

So it seems highly irresponsible to me that we, as a society, should fixate on enablement for people who suffer from gender dysphoria or autogynephilia, and enshrine enabling entitlements in our public policy.

 

[Thermal]

I should accept who they are, not who they think they should be or want to be.

That is my view.

For that matter I do not support discrimination against them in housing, education, employment, public accomodations.

But again that is not what this topic is about.

Try your argument out on anyone else:

"Being straight is not something that people are. It's just something they think they should be or want to be."

Sound ridiculous? That's exactly what your trans view sounds like to us.

ETA: btw, you already started a thread with the same name where you already did this. Any particular reason you don't just pick up where you left off?

H

Thread 'Gay rights vs Trans rights?'

Apr 13, 2024

Gay rights. Trans rights. Is there a meaningful difference?

Being Gay means that you as a man are sexually attracted to other men.

A Gay woman is attracted to women, as opposed to men.

You want you sexual choices and desires to be respected, even though they are counter to biological norms.

Being trans means you feel you literally live in the wrong body, and your body must be altered surgically and medicinally for your to be able to live the life you feel is truly you.

Is there a significant difference between being Gay and Trans?

I say there is. Being Gay doesn't require you...

• Hercules56
• Replies: 97
• Forum: Social Issues

 

[Hercules56]

Try your argument out on anyone else:

"Being straight is not something that people are. It's just something they think they should be or want to be."

Sound ridiculous? That's exactly what your trans view sounds like to us.

ETA: btw, you already started a thread with the same name where you already did this. Any particular reason you don't just pick up where you left off?

Your argument fails. Being straight is a emotional and psychological state. Just like being Gay. It is what it is, they aren't trying to change themselves.

In fact for thousands of years Gay people were forced to make believe they were something that they were not. Now in the West they are finally allowed to be exactly who they are.

Trans.....want to change who they are with hormones and hormone blockers and reconstructive surgery.

Its simply not the same.

 

[I Am The Scum]

They want society to be FORCED to recognize their change in sex identity, and be punished if they do not.

Trans want us to accept their CHANGE, and accept that their CHANGE to a woman or a man is accurate and true.

Exactly what kind of CHANGE do you think you are being FORCED to accept? Pronouns?

 

[Hercules56]

Exactly what kind of CHANGE do you think you are being FORCED to accept? Pronouns?

I am being forced to recognize a tranwoman as a true woman. I can be sued or face disciplinary action even if I simply refer to them by their new chosen name rather than she/her/Ms.

Lesbians and Gays make no such demands on me.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I am being forced to recognize a tranwoman as a true woman. I can be sued or face disciplinary action even if I simply refer to them by their new chosen name rather than she/her/Ms.

Lesbians and Gays make no such demands on me.

I would appreciate it if you can show someone being successfully sued for referring to another by that person's desired name.

And there are cases of people being "forced" to comply with the reality of gay marriage. Kim Davis is a famous example.

 

[Thermal]

Your argument fails. Being straight is a emotional and psychological state. Just like being Gay. It is what it is, they aren't trying to change themselves.

In fact for thousands of years Gay people were forced to make believe they were something that they were not. Now in the West they are finally allowed to be exactly who they are.

Trans.....want to change who they are with hormones and hormone blockers and reconstructive surgery.

Its simply not the same.

No it's not. Being straight is a choice, that I, as the observer, evaluate.

That's literally your position. You didn't get it on the last time you made the same thread, and you still don't get it now.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The important thing is that other people's bodies and their notions of their own sex are my business, not theirs. I might be socially pressured to move my tongue and lips slightly differently in order to produce a different sound on some occasions!! THE WORST OPPRESSION EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ten billion trillion times worse than Hitler, and if you disagree then you're even worse than that.

 

[Hercules56]

I would appreciate it if you can show someone being successfully sued for referring to another by that person's desired name.

And there are cases of people being "forced" to comply with the reality of gay marriage. Kim Davis is a famous example.

Not really, they were simply being required to do their job.

 

[Hercules56]

The important thing is that other people's bodies and their notions of their own sex are my business, not theirs. I might be socially pressured to move my tongue and lips slightly differently in order to produce a different sound on some occasions!! THE WORST OPPRESSION EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ten billion trillion times worse than Hitler, and if you disagree then you're even worse than that.

No, what you do to your body is your business. Shouldn't affect my behavior or words one bit.

I have a problem with you telling me that you have decided you are now a woman and I must identify you as a woman or I could lose my job or be fined.

Gays make no such demands upon me.

 

[Thermal]

No, what you do to your body is your business. Shouldn't affect my behavior or words one bit.

I have a problem with you telling me that you have decided you are now a woman and I must identify you as a woman or I could lose my job or be fined.

Gays make no such demands upon me.

"Decided". That's where you tip your hand, and rip away your own fig leaf.

A trans person doesn't 'decide' to be trans. They come to terms with what they really are. Just like a guy who is married with kids might one day realize he is gay, and come to terms with what he really is. Both would ask you to accept that.

But you won't. And that's when the ick factor makes me bug out of the discussion. See you next week when you start the same goddamned thread yet again, I suppose titled Gay Rights vs Trans Rights!