Poem
Illuminator
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Sure, I'm interested in Jesus...but my OP still stands as challenge and is but one among many such biblical issues.
Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?
- Thread starter Poem
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Why? Did you know him?
Among thousands, yes. But only to Christians who think it is. My experience is that none of them do.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Clearly, most Christians have little problem with Biblical issues.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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My experience is that most Christians haven't read more than a few selected verses.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
I was essentially raised a Southern Baptist. There was a lot of Bible reading and memorization going on, but no one was questioning it.
Manopolus
Metaphorical Anomaly
Indeed.
As a matter of fact, I'd say that most Christians follow Christianity in precisely the same way they cheer on their local football team. It isn't about actually knowing anything. Half of them don't even know what it is they're supposed to believe beyond "Jesus Loves Me" and he died on a cross for "our sins." They just know that they believe it unquestioningly and repeat those tidbits over and over.
Personally, I like to talk about the role of human sacrifice and cannibalism in the religion, but they don't like my take on it much.
But if you were wondering... I read a lot of C.S. Lewis back in the day, and this was close to the time that I abandoned Christianity at approximately age 10... somewhere between 10 and 12, anyway, but 10's a nice, round number. Lewis had little to do with it. The Bible itself and Robert A. Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" were greater influences, but overall, it was mainly because I finally realized that the very core of the religion was rotten. Seems nice and juicy on the outside, but rotten at the core.
The main thing was about Abraham being willing to kill Isaac as a human sacrifice... and the religion portraying that as a good thing. Combine that with God supposedly doing the same damn thing to his own son (but this time following through with it) and well... seriously. You can't see how inherently evil that is? There's nothing ethically redeeming about the whole damn thing. The story itself is reprehensible once you back off of the emotional poignancy enough to see it from a modern perspective.
The only way you can cast all that in a seemingly good light is with a completely authoritarian, grovelling perspective. I don't bow down to authoritarians, regardless of their supposed power... especially not if they're obviously, reprehensibly, wrong. I won't worship your clearly evil god, regardless of the consequences. Lucky for me, I'm pretty sure it's all nonsense, anyway. It took a few years of being willfully damned before I came to that conclusion, though.
There were other passages that hit me as ethically questionable along the way, but those are the most well-known ones, and I don't even know anymore what triggered my first round of sanity that extracted me from the cult. It might have been Job, but I don't remember anymore. All I know is that I read the whole damn Bible front to back before putting it aside for good.
Once you are able to put aside the grovelling authoritarian mindset and take responsibility for your own conscience instead of delegating it to ancient nonsense, there's quite a lot in that book isn't remotely morally acceptable to the current generation of humans. That I know. But since most don't bother to read it critically, the religion continues on. I guess that's okay in a way (mostly harmless), but I don't personally endorse it if you couldn't tell.
I do, however, wholly recommend reading the entire book front to back -- independently, with no one guiding you to specific cherry-picked passages -- before trying to pawn it off onto the next guy. Doing just that creates a lot of newly-spawned atheists and agnostics, but that's not a bad thing from my perspective. And at least then you'll know what you're endorsing. The tedium eventually cleanses away the socially-induced piety enough that you can think critically -- or at least that's my experience. Once the church-induced social pressures are put aside and you're left alone to think for yourself, you can see it for what it is, and it's not particularly pretty.
Yes, I know that most of this is largely irrelevant, but I'm a crotchety old geezer that likes telling long-winded stories. Mere disagreement is too bland to bother posting. But yeah, I also noticed fairly early on that The New Testiment predicted the apocolypse within the lifetimes of those who were currently alive when it was written. I found that rather confusing, but wasn't entirely sure that I was reading it right. I didn't get that from C.S. Lewis, though. I read it in the original source (but admittedly not in the original language). But by the time I noticed that feature, I didn't consider myself a Christian anymore, anyway.
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Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
You are still pretending not to be a Christian, and no-one here is buying that. No-one else needs to prove their beliefs because, as far as I can tell, no-one else here is pretending to be anything other than what they are.
What response would you like? I'm not a Christian, so those verses mean nothing to me.
Paul was a Jew who became Christian, not the other way round. And you are twisting his words here. Naughty.
Oh, and something in scripture isn't following scripture? How does that work, then?
Adding to this: "following scripture" is another slip from you. Only Christians talk like that.
I thought the OT didn't apply to Christians?
It comes as no surprise to me that the Bible contradicts itself. This, again, is not the winning argument you want it to be.
Also. for a purported non-Christian, you do seem to be very familiar with the Bible. How curious.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
It does when they agree with it. To be fair, there's a decent amount that's agreeable in Proverbs.
Manopolus
Metaphorical Anomaly
Depends on the sect. Some Christian groups rely fairly heavily on the OT. Others mostly try to ignore it.
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Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
Which is the opposite of what you were saying before.
Asking them what happened to Judas is usually a good test.
Poem
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Still no response. Noted.
I didn't say otherwise and you have not established anything of the sort. I thought biblical verses meant nothing to you?
Not following you.
I quoted from OT and NT, but since they mean nothing to you then there's no point continuing.
Poem
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Poem
Illuminator
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Whilst I find the story troubling, I'm not sure I would call it evil. I'm also not clear that Christians agree on whether is was literal or not.
You say that Abraham was willing to kill Isaac - but is that actually true? In verse 5 Abraham speaks:
He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
Also - verse 8:
Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.”
Please do explain.
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Well no - what is recorded in the likes of the gospels is what other people said he said - only Paul claims first person knowledge of Jesus.
Poem
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My understanding is that is contested - but I wasn't actually asserting that he was recorded first hand....just that we have what are purported to be his words.
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
I did respond. Just because you don't like that response does not mean there was no response.
They don't mean anything to me, because I'm not a Christian. I don't need to defend my behaviour by referencing the Bible. You are, so you do.
And, by 'not establishing anything of the sort', are you denying the story of the conversion of Paul? I can easily quote the parts of the Bible that establish that very clearly. With your obvious familiarity wth that book, I'm surprised you didn't know this already. Would you like me to quote that story? You know, the road to Damascus bit.
You said that something that was in scripture was not following scripture. I asked you to explain that. Which part of this are you not following?
Sophistry, and puerile sohpistry at that.
I am not a Christian, so what some imaginary deity does or does not want me to do is immaterial to me. However, to Christians, this is very important. You started a thread about Christianity. Are you now saying that only Christians are allowed to participate? Or can non-Christians discuss Christianity in this thread too?
Could only be contested by someone who hasn't read the NT.
Poem
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Okay Cosmic Yak - you either retract and apologize for essentially calling me a liar or I stop reading your posts.
Poem
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