Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

[sphenisc]

But he didn't conclude that "he considered Jesus erred.".

He said
"The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. "

It would seem that Lewis regarded Jesus' ignorance as being indicated by him making an erroneous statement. Do you interpret it differently?

 

[Poem]

According to Hebrews 2 - Jesus was made fully human.......

 

[theprestige]

The OP simply states that the passage in question is valid grounds for scepticism. That's it. I think you are reading into it more than is actually there.

You've contributed a lot more than just the OP to this thread. What I'm reading is stuff you've actually put here.

Lewis will have his own reasons for faith in spite of his admission that he considered Jesus erred.

Whatever his reasons, it undermines your hypothesis that the verse in question is catastrophic to the faith.

 

[acbytesla]

The OP simply states that the passage in question is valid grounds for scepticism. That's it. I think you are reading into it more than is actually there.

Lewis will have his own reasons for faith in spite of his admission that he considered Jesus erred.

I guess I don't understand the obsession with what CS Lewis said. He's right that this verse is problematic and is valid grounds for skepticism. But the verse is just one of thousands in the bible that are. Yet the religion grew despite it being nonsensical. The same thing is true about Mormonism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam and so on. When religions are based on faith, Total BS is a minor inconvenience. If that.

If you you think about it, the verse definitely undermines the credibility of Jesus. That is, if you think about it. Which, the faithful do not. Faith is a get out of jail free card from having to think about it.

Thought is not only not required, it is discouraged. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. Just have faith and God will do the rest. And for a lot of people, they can and do just go along with this. Just take a look at Mormonism and Joseph Smith. The man was a con man. Arrested, tried and convicted of grift. Then he he founded a religious empire whose first tenet is ...you guessed it, faith.

But for me, this kind of circular reasoning drove me crazy. Despite being part of the Church for two decades, I don't think I ever believed. Which makes me wonder. How many others in the pews are just like I was? How many actually believe? And how many are just pretending?

 

[Poem]

You've contributed a lot more than just the OP to this thread. What I'm reading is stuff you've actually put here.

Whatever his reasons, it undermines your hypothesis that the verse in question is catastrophic to the faith.

Well sure, it's based on my limited and flawed understanding - but the verse looks very awkward to me. As I have mentioned, some Christians might not want to stare for too long or too deeply at those words of Jesus.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Millions of Christians ignore the flaws in the Bible.

 

[Poem]

I guess I don't understand the obsession with what CS Lewis said. He's right that this verse is problematic and is valid grounds for skepticism. But the verse is just one of thousands in the bible that are. Yet the religion grew despite it being nonsensical. The same thing is true about Mormonism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam and so on. When religions are based on faith, Total BS is a minor inconvenience. If that.

It's not an obsession - just a focal point that is stark in that it is Jesus himself speaking words of prophecy.

If you you think about it, the verse definitely undermines the credibility of Jesus. That is, if you think about it. Which, the faithful do not. Faith is a get out of jail free card from having to think about it.

There a good number of intelligent, thinking folk that believe in Jesus....how about Francis Collins.

Thought is not only not required, it is discouraged. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

A verse written from the perspective of someone (St. Paul) who is 100% convince that God is real.

It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. Just have faith and God will do the rest. And for a lot of people, they can and do just go along with this. Just take a look at Mormonism and Joseph Smith. The man was a con man. Arrested, tried and convicted of grift. Then he he founded a religious empire whose first tenet is ...you guessed it, faith.

But for me, this kind of circular reasoning drove me crazy. Despite being part of the Church for two decades, I don't think I ever believed. Which makes me wonder. How many others in the pews are just like I was? How many actually believe? And how many are just pretending?

I don't think I ever believed when I thought I was a Christian either. And, yes, I do think a lot of people pretend. I think a lot of folk are just guessing.

 

[acbytesla]

It's not an obsession - just a focal point that is stark in that it is Jesus himself speaking words of prophecy.

Yeah, it is. This is a single verse in just one book in the Bible. The faithful will either not care at all or rationalize it in some way.

There a good number of intelligent, thinking folk that believe in Jesus....how about Francis Collins.

Granted, Francis Collins is a very smart man. But have you ever read why he believes? The reason is truly moronic. Smart people are not immune to having dumb beliefs. Isaac Newton may have been the most intelligent person to draw breath. And yet he was a devout believer. He even attributed to God why some of his calculations in Principia Mathematica weren't quite right . Calculations that he was more than capable of solving. Which forced La Place to take up the mantle.

A verse written from the perspective of someone (St. Paul) who is 100% convince that God is real.

Was he? How would you know? How do you know that all of it wasn't a total fabrication of Paul's? How does any of us know that Paul wasn't just the first century's version of Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard?

I don't think I ever believed when I thought I was a Christian either. And, yes, I do think a lot of people pretend. I think a lot of folk are just guessing.

I wonder??

I see this as I do the Emperor's New Clothes. Except with a more realistic ending. When the kid points out that the King is naked, the parents shush the kid or the kid is arrested and executed.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

So many 'Christians' today see things like the Inquisition and Crusades and the intolerance of non-believers in general as some kind of aberration, when it was pervasive for hundreds of years while to some extent it still exists today.
Don't forget the Old Testament which was all about the genocides demanded by that loving Go Jehovah.

 

[acbytesla]

So many 'Christians' today see things like the Inquisition and Crusades and the intolerance of non-believers in general as some kind of aberration, when it was pervasive for hundreds of years while to some extent it still exists today.
Don't forget the Old Testament which was all about the genocides demanded by that loving Go Jehovah.

It is hardly an aberration. In a period of a hundred years, a Roman went from being possibly executed for being a Christian to possibly being executed for not being one. I don't think it's exactly a coincidence that the word "Jehovah" means Jealous God.

Spreading the word by the sword started pretty much with Constatine and goes on to this very day. Actually, before Constatine. Sure, there are lulls in violence by Christians from time to time. But I don't believe for a second that we have seen the last of them.

 

[theprestige]

Well sure, it's based on my limited and flawed understanding - but the verse looks very awkward to me.

Yes, we know. It looks very awkward to a lot of people. It even looks awkward to some people who make an effort to be rational about their faith.

As I have mentioned, some Christians might not want to stare for too long or too deeply at those words of Jesus.

I'm sure that's true.

So where does that leave us?

Is it grounds for skepticism? Sure. There's plenty of grounds for skepticism in the Bible.

Is it catastrophic to the faith? Obviously not. Christianity is the largest religion on the planet.

Maybe you mean it could trigger a crisis of faith in some individual Christians? In my experience, it's not any one thing that triggers a crisis of faith in an individual believer. It's a steady accrual of things. Inconsistency upon inconsistency in the scriptures, not any one inconsistent passage by itself. Something fundamentally objectionable about a core doctrine, in the eyes of that individual. Etc.

Could this verse be the final straw? Sure. But so could any other aspect of the religion. Seriously, what did you expect?

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, we know. It looks very awkward to a lot of people. It even looks awkward to some people who make an effort to be rational about their faith.

I'm sure that's true.

So where does that leave us?

Is it grounds for skepticism? Sure. There's plenty of grounds for skepticism in the Bible.

Is it catastrophic to the faith? Obviously not. Christianity is the largest religion on the planet.

Maybe you mean it could trigger a crisis of faith in some individual Christians? In my experience, it's not any one thing that triggers a crisis of faith in an individual believer. It's a steady accrual of things. Inconsistency upon inconsistency in the scriptures, not any one inconsistent passage by itself. Something fundamentally objectionable about a core doctrine, in the eyes of that individual. Etc.

Could this verse be the final straw? Sure. But so could any other aspect of the religion. Seriously, what did you expect?

Again Prestige, we agree totally. It would have to be holistic and not just one thing.

But, I don't see how this verse could ever be that straw. A detail like Jesus may have said something about his return happening in the first century wouldn't have even registered to give me doubt. But that was because I never believed in the inerrancy of scripture. That something in the bible may have been wrong wouldn't even phase most believers. It would be a big yawn and a retort of "so?"

What the last straw for me was reading the Old Testament. It truly sickened me. I had been taught my entire life by my very loving mother that God was loving and forgiving. But what I got from reading the Old Testament turned over that apple cart. Story after story didn't demonstrate God being loving. No, the God I was worshipping was a hideous monster. Not sure what story that ended my faith. But I particularly remember just how revolting l thought the story of Jepthah was.

 

[arthwollipot]

Arth, it's quite simple. Do you believe what your church taught you because you are a Christian, or not? You laid your interpretation of that Bibical verse as "my explanation". It is still very unclear to me what that meant.

I don't see why it's relevant to the conversation, but no. I am as atheist as you are. I had experience with church, and it taught me a lot about what that church believes, but I left that many years ago.

I've been talking about religion on this forum for many years now. I'm surprised that you still don't know my background, which I have spent a not-inconsiderable number of my almost 94,000 posts talking about.

Millions of Christians ignore the flaws in the Bible.

Millions of Christians rationalise the flaws in the Bible. That's not the same thing.

 

[theprestige]

I don't see why it's relevant to the conversation, but no. I am as atheist as you are. I had experience with church, and it taught me a lot about what that church believes, but I left that many years ago.

I've been talking about religion on this forum for many years now. I'm surprised that you still don't know my background, which I have spent a not-inconsiderable number of my almost 94,000 posts talking about.

Millions of Christians rationalise the flaws in the Bible. That's not the same thing.

There's 2 billion Christians in the world. I think there's more than enough room for millions of each.

 

[arthwollipot]

There's 2 billion Christians in the world. I think there's more than enough room for millions of each.

Yes. Not sure how this is a reply to what I said, but yes.

 

[theprestige]

Yes. Not sure how this is a reply to what I said, but yes.

You corrected Greg on a matter of millions of Christians, like he was wrong and you were right. I'm saying you didn't correct sod all. Now you're acting confused about what you said and what you meant.

 

[arthwollipot]

You corrected Greg on a matter of millions of Christians, like he was wrong and you were right. I'm saying you didn't correct sod all. Now you're acting confused about what you said and what you meant.

I'm acting confused about what you said. Millions of each of what?

 

[theprestige]

I'm acting confused about what you said. Millions of each of what?

Millions who rationalize. Millions who ignore.

Do you still see a need to correct Greg about the millions who ignore?

 

[acbytesla]

I don't see why it's relevant to the conversation, but no. I am as atheist as you are. I had experience with church, and it taught me a lot about what that church believes, but I left that many years ago.

I've been talking about religion on this forum for many years now. I'm surprised that you still don't know my background, which I have spent a not-inconsiderable number of my almost 94,000 posts talking about.

Millions of Christians rationalise the flaws in the Bible. That's not the same thing.

They do both.

 

[arthwollipot]

Millions who rationalize. Millions who ignore.

Do you still see a need to correct Greg about the millions who ignore?

Okay I get what you're saying now. Yes, I will agree that there are some who rationalise and some who probably simply ignore. I haven't encountered very many of the latter, but I acknowledge that they probably exist.