Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

That's funny, his book on Norse mythology was the one I thought was terrible. I already knew all the stories, and when the book was given to me as a Christmas present I was hoping for an imaginative retelling. Not necessarily imagining more than is already there in the Eddas, but using his narrative skills to bring the stories to life for a modern audience. Instead I thought it was pedestrian and less of a page turner than the originals.

Now we seem to be covering material that should be in the Neil Gaiman thread. I brought that post here because Arthwollipot seemed to think he'd be in trouble for off-topic if he discussed Joanne Rowling in the Neil Gaiman thread, because she was supposed to be confined to this ghetto. It's gone back the other way!

 

[theprestige]

That's funny, his book on Norse mythology was the one I thought was terrible. I already knew all the stories, and when the book was given to me as a Christmas present I was hoping for an imaginative retelling. Not necessarily imagining more than is already there in the Eddas, but using his narrative skills to bring the stories to life for a modern audience. Instead I thought it was pedestrian and less of a page turner than the originals.

Now we seem to be covering material that should be in the Neil Gaiman thread. I brought that post here because Arthwollipot seemed to think he'd be in trouble for off-topic if he discussed Joanne Rowling in the Neil Gaiman thread, because she was supposed to be confined to this ghetto. It's gone back the other way!

Yeah, I got confused about what thread we were in.

Back on topic, and in fact hearkening back to the OP itself: President Trump has issued an executive order that prohibits federal funds to schools that allow men to compete in women's sports. This falls under his authority to enforce Title IX, which seeks to protect women's equality and equity in higher education.

 

[Rolfe]

Good. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[d4m10n]

President Trump has issued an executive order that prohibits federal funds to schools that allow men to compete in women's sports. This falls under his authority to enforce Title IX, which seeks to protect women's equality and equity in higher education.

Prediction #1: Progressive rights groups will sue to vindicate the rights of certain males to play in female leagues.

Prediction #2: No one in the "What did Democrats do wrong?" thread will admit that said lawsuit is an electorally counterproductive move.

 

[smartcooky]

Prediction #1: Progressive rights groups will sue to vindicate the rights of certain males to play in female leagues.

My prediction: Such a lawsuit, if attempted, will fail. A lawsuit like that might succeed in Australia or here in NZ, but in the US, you have an ultra-conservative Supreme Court. If the lawsuit were to somehow succeed in the lower court, the Trump Administration can use the Supremacy Clause to immediately advance the case to SCOTUS under urgency.

Prediction #2: No one in the "What did Democrats do wrong?" thread will admit that said lawsuit is an electorally counterproductive move.

My prediction: If progressive rights groups are collectively stupid enough to try this on, and the Dems don't immediately and effectively distance themselves from it , they will cement their place as the also-rans of US politics.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Good. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

That's true,... The "but" here is that the heavy-handedness and general aggressiveness by the Trump Admin is causing backlash. I'm not hearing any acknowledgment from our local or national public radio that having males in girls/women's sports is anything but "limiting trans-rights". & I feel like the New York Times has regressed a bit in their coverage.

Another positive - the hospital I work for has stopped hormonal "gender-affirming care" for children.

 

[Pacal]

In this day and age, speaking the truth that biological sex is immutable, and advocating for human rights for women will get you cancelled by the gender cult

Take massive doses of estrogen if your male or massive doses of testosterone if your female and get back to me in two years Has usual a conflation of gender and biology. There are gender roles which are not given to be immutable and absolutely related to biological sex. Thus in many societies a biological male may perform the female gender role and in that society be referred too as "she" and the reverse a biological female performing a male gender role being referred to as "he".

But of course what your actually referring too when you talk about biological sex is chromosomal sex has in XX and XY. Well guess what there are Women who have XY chromosomes. Why? Well because the cascade of testosterone failed to happen. Women with XY chromosomes usually are bigger and stronger than XX Women.

A few years ago North Carolina passed it's utterly absurd bathroom law requiring Men and Women to go to the bathroom of their chromosomal sex. No doubt Men will have no trouble with Transwomen using their bathrooms and Women will have no trouble with Transmen using their washrooms. (I now several personally and I suppose having a big bruiser, with hair all over and an immense beard will not cause any issues at all in a Women's rest room.)

The over the top rage and hysteria over this issue is quite blackly funny. Especially given how marginal and harassed Trans people are and of course the upsurge in bigotry and sheer bile recently about Transwomen especially being a horrible existential threat to women every where or in fact to everything. (Note do all biological Women feel or think this? I don't see it very common among my many biological Women friends.)

But then it appears that the safety etc., of Trans people is just not worth much to many people. Instead largely imaginary crap about Trans people ,(Almost always Trans Women), invading threatening etc., 'real" Women or perhaps people's precious bodily fluids etc., runs rampant.

Transmen seem to get a lot less of this nonsense.

But then I further note that the actual real life experiences of Trans people is of little importance to so many and of course turning a deaf ear to their voices / concerns.

Of course if we could really get rid of the conflation of gender with biological sex this all wouldn't matter.

 

[Rolfe]

Transwomen "marginal and harrassed". What colour is the sky on your planet?

 

[theprestige]

Take massive doses of estrogen if your male or massive doses of testosterone if your female and get back to me in two years

You really need to take a look at average natural testosterone levels in males versus females. There's zero overlap, and it's not even close. I wouldn't be surprised if a woman would die from testosterone poisoning, trying to get her hormones up to the lowest male levels.

 

[Rolfe]

Taking the sex hormones your body isn't designed to run on is a really, really bad idea and a recipe for all sorts of health problems. In no way does it turn a man into a woman or vice versa.

And I for one an sick to the back teeth being told to listen to trans people. I did, and didn't like what I heard one tiny little bit. The men are aggressive, entitled, inconsiderate fetishists who get off on invading women's spaces and making the women in them uncomfortable. The women are malajusted fugitives from womanhood, usually as an escape from male objectification and stereotyping.

Marginalised? They have every public and private body eating out of their hands, falling over each other to get Stonewall points by giving in to their every whim. They are the most privileged minority on the face of the planet. And most of them are straight, white, middle-aged, middle-class men.

Quelle surprise.

 

[Brainster]

JK responds to the gambit that "it's just a tiny minority":

The actual victims in this mess have been women and children, especially the most vulnerable, gay people who've resisted the movement and paid a horrible price, and regular people working in environments where one misplaced pronoun could see you vilified or constructively dismissed. Do not tell me this is about a tiny minority. This movement has impacted society in disastrous ways, and if you had any sense, you'd be quietly deleting every trace of activist mantras, ad hominem attacks, false equivalence and circular arguments from your X feeds, because the day is fast approaching when you'll want to pretend you always saw through the craziness and never believed it for a second.

 

[smartcooky]

Take massive doses of estrogen if your male or massive doses of testosterone if your female and get back to me in two years Has usual a conflation of gender and biology. There are gender roles which are not given to be immutable and absolutely related to biological sex. Thus in many societies a biological male may perform the female gender role and in that society be referred too as "she" and the reverse a biological female performing a male gender role being referred to as "he".

But of course what your actually referring too when you talk about biological sex is chromosomal sex has in XX and XY. Well guess what there are Women who have XY chromosomes. Why? Well because the cascade of testosterone failed to happen. Women with XY chromosomes usually are bigger and stronger than XX Women.

A few years ago North Carolina passed it's utterly absurd bathroom law requiring Men and Women to go to the bathroom of their chromosomal sex. No doubt Men will have no trouble with Transwomen using their bathrooms and Women will have no trouble with Transmen using their washrooms. (I now several personally and I suppose having a big bruiser, with hair all over and an immense beard will not cause any issues at all in a Women's rest room.)

The over the top rage and hysteria over this issue is quite blackly funny. Especially given how marginal and harassed Trans people are and of course the upsurge in bigotry and sheer bile recently about Transwomen especially being a horrible existential threat to women every where or in fact to everything. (Note do all biological Women feel or think this? I don't see it very common among my many biological Women friends.)

But then it appears that the safety etc., of Trans people is just not worth much to many people. Instead largely imaginary crap about Trans people ,(Almost always Trans Women), invading threatening etc., 'real" Women or perhaps people's precious bodily fluids etc., runs rampant.

Transmen seem to get a lot less of this nonsense.

But then I further note that the actual real life experiences of Trans people is of little importance to so many and of course turning a deaf ear to their voices / concerns.

Of course if we could really get rid of the conflation of gender with biological sex this all wouldn't matter.

Your gish gallop is hardly worth the time to respond, except for two laughable points
1. I am biological male. No matter how long I take massive doses of estrogen for, I can promise you that
a My meat and two veg will not turn into a card-swiper.
b. I will still be a biological male.

2. Gender is a social construct, sex is a fact of biological science. They are distinct and seperate things. You can have all the genders you want, but there are, always have been, and always will be, TWO and only TWO biological sexes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think this is something men in particular have difficulty with. That (apart from rare cases where the desire to transition has its roots in severe psychiatric illness such as borderline personality disorder) this is all sexual fetishism. Even Blaire White is doing it as part of his sexual presentation as an extremely feminine homosexual man. Most of them are simply run of the mill autogynaephiles.

Men who don't have these fetishes find it difficult to understand. They have sympathy for the poor tortured souls who feel so bad they're driven to humiliate themselves by wearing women's clothes and even cutting their genitalia off. They join the chorus urging women to "be kind" because they find the underlying perversions incomprehensible, and don't actually want to think about that part.

Women seem to find it easier to believe that men can and will and do behave like this, and once the penny has dropped (the process now known as "peaking"), are more likely to move to a hard-line position of no men in women's spaces, none at all, and frankly precious little sympathy other than the general sympathy one might feel for anyone driven by an uncontrollable fetish to beclown themselves in public.

We find it easier to believe, because we've spent most of our lives being subjected to males being pervs toward us.

Like, every single female I know has been sexually assaulted or harassed to some degree or other - we've all been hounded by males who won't take no for an answer, we've been catcalled and subjected to shockingly obscene descriptions of what some random male would like to do to us (often at entirely inappropriate ages, for me it was 12), we have males staring at our breasts or backsides regularly, we've been grabbed and fondled by complete strangers in public, and most of us have been subjected to an attempted rape... with far too many having actually been raped. We've been threatened with rape or violence if we make a male mad for even the most basic of reasons.

We find it easier to believe because it happens to us over and over again.

But despite how frequently this happens to females, and how much females experience this... the overwhelming number of males out there will say that they don't know any males at all who would ever do such a thing. So they're either hiding it from other males, or they're blind to this behavior. Either way... we believe it because we absolutely incontrovertibly know it's common.

 

[Manger Douse]

But despite how frequently this happens to females, and how much females experience this... the overwhelming number of males out there will say that they don't know any males at all who would ever do such a thing. So they're either hiding it from other males, or they're blind to this behavior. Either way... we believe it because we absolutely incontrovertibly know it's common.

A TRA on this forum you're familiar with has previously said that he thought women must be exaggerating about the risk of sexual assault they feel in women's toilets because he himself had never experienced any sexual assault in men's toilets

 

[Emily's Cat]

There are disturbing elements to many of them. But on the other hand, I give you the Brothers Grimm. Indeed, Hans Christian Andersen. I think children should be challenged and disturbed (to some extent) and not just given anodyne pap to read. But it's a fine line, and it's in a different place for every child.

Fiction for children serves a purpose, not just entertainment. I cut my teeth on the Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Andersen, Aesop's Fables, and Bulfinch's Mythology. Underlying the stories were some valuable messages: bad people exist in the world; some bad people prey on children; you can fight back even if you're little; using your brain is a good thing and can keep you from being hurt; evil masks itself by pretending to be good; don't be tricked by candy; death and illness and injury are a part of life that can happen to anyone.

I'm old, and I don't have kids... but I tend to think that the anodyne approach should be rescinded in more arenas than just fiction. Children need to be able to get hurt while they're young and can recover, they need to experience pain and illness so that they learn that they will survive it and will heal. They need to fall down so that they learn to get up, but also so they learn how not to fall again. If we're never allowed to make mistakes, we never learn how to avoid mistakes, and we're forever dependent on someone else to keep us safe.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Take massive doses of estrogen if your male or massive doses of testosterone if your female and get back to me in two years Has usual a conflation of gender and biology. There are gender roles which are not given to be immutable and absolutely related to biological sex. Thus in many societies a biological male may perform the female gender role and in that society be referred too as "she" and the reverse a biological female performing a male gender role being referred to as "he".

But of course what your actually referring too when you talk about biological sex is chromosomal sex has in XX and XY. Well guess what there are Women who have XY chromosomes. Why? Well because the cascade of testosterone failed to happen. Women with XY chromosomes usually are bigger and stronger than XX Women.

A few years ago North Carolina passed it's utterly absurd bathroom law requiring Men and Women to go to the bathroom of their chromosomal sex. No doubt Men will have no trouble with Transwomen using their bathrooms and Women will have no trouble with Transmen using their washrooms. (I now several personally and I suppose having a big bruiser, with hair all over and an immense beard will not cause any issues at all in a Women's rest room.)

The over the top rage and hysteria over this issue is quite blackly funny. Especially given how marginal and harassed Trans people are and of course the upsurge in bigotry and sheer bile recently about Transwomen especially being a horrible existential threat to women every where or in fact to everything. (Note do all biological Women feel or think this? I don't see it very common among my many biological Women friends.)

But then it appears that the safety etc., of Trans people is just not worth much to many people. Instead largely imaginary crap about Trans people ,(Almost always Trans Women), invading threatening etc., 'real" Women or perhaps people's precious bodily fluids etc., runs rampant.

Transmen seem to get a lot less of this nonsense.

But then I further note that the actual real life experiences of Trans people is of little importance to so many and of course turning a deaf ear to their voices / concerns.

Of course if we could really get rid of the conflation of gender with biological sex this all wouldn't matter.

Epic Fringe Reset! I think Pacal gets the trophy until someone new comes along that covers as many resets in one post.

 

[Matthew Best]

Take massive doses of estrogen if your male or massive doses of testosterone if your female

If my male what? And if my female what?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And I for one an sick to the back teeth being told to listen to trans people. I did, and didn't like what I heard one tiny little bit.

There's some value in listening to trans people, especially if you share what they themselves say with other people. It tends to lead to a whole lot of peaking.

Listen to Trans People

 

[Emily's Cat]

A TRA on this forum you're familiar with has previously said that he thought women must be exaggerating about the risk of sexual assault they feel in women's toilets because he himself had never experienced any sexual assault in men's toilets

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or just sigh at that. It's not at all surprising though.

 

[theprestige]

Following an Executive Order blocking federal funds to any school that allows men to compete in women's sports, the NCAA has decided to prohibit men from competing as women in NCAA sports.