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Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

No, I said the samples were switched as an answer to your question, "what do you think happened?"
Yes, I invited you to offer a hypothesis to explain the non-overlapping dates. Then I asked you what evidence favored that hypothesis, but all you had was a circular argument.

I don't even need to explain why the heterogeneity of the samples invalidates the carbon 14 test.

If the carbon 14 dating fails the chi^2 test, then the results are no good.
Asked and answered. Even if we accept for the sake of argument that the statistics claim is true, your argument is still circular.
 
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That's part of it, not sufficient, but there are other lines of evidence, do you want to change the subject, or discuss the cap of thorns.
No, I don't want to discuss the cap of thorns. You've cited a passage of the Qur'an that claims Jesus was not actually killed. I want you to tell me what the relevance and value is of that citation.

Dead men leave no images on their burial shrouds.
If that's your claim, then how is the parsimonious and consilient conclusion not that the shroud is a medieval forgery?
 
&JayUtah. Jay, I fear you have forgotten a basic principle of the Jabbaverse: The Virtual Proof.

And you, in your line of work! Surely you can extrapolate from "close enough for engineering purposes" to "virtually close enough for eternal verity!" We were schooled -- all of us! -- in this Great Truth right on this forum, for months, by Our Master Jabba (Peas and Carrots Be Upon Him), in His mighty threads, Selah.

Months? Why it was virtual years! Virtually a decade, by the end. You could feel it.

So don't go havering logic around here. The Higher Truth is a slippery pole, and not just anybody can dance up it.
 
Laying flat on my back, I can reach the position of the man in the shroud.
Okay so here's another test you can do. Since...
Dead men leave no images on their burial shrouds.
... you will have to paint yourself in a non-toxic ink and have a piece of cloth wrapped around you like a shroud. Then carefully take it off (so it doesn't smudge the image) and see whether the impression looks remotely like the image on the Shroud of Turin. I guarantee that it will not.

However you look at it, the image on the Shroud of Turin is not human-shaped. Especially if you consider that a burial shroud is wrapped around a body, and not simply draped over the top of it.
 
Okay so here's another test you can do. Since...

... you will have to paint yourself in a non-toxic ink and have a piece of cloth wrapped around you like a shroud. Then carefully take it off (so it doesn't smudge the image) and see whether the impression looks remotely like the image on the Shroud of Turin. I guarantee that it will not.

However you look at it, the image on the Shroud of Turin is not human-shaped. Especially if you consider that a burial shroud is wrapped around a body, and not simply draped over the top of it.
It's almost certainly a work of art. I can't trust the Catholic church when it comes to stuff like this. Integrity has never been Its strong suit.
 
So, as this nonsense has been resurrected let's look at the facts.

The evidence against the authenticity of the shroud:

1. Historical:
a) the lack of evidence for the shroud's existence prior to the mid fourteenth century
b) it's emergence during the 'holy relic' craze (along with about forty other such burial shrouds)
c) lack of mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in any early Christian writings
d) the distinct changes in the shroud, fading of colour, since its first exposure

2. Physiological:
e) the lack of resemblance of the shroud image to an actual human body;
f) likewise the position of the body with hands folded across the genitals which simply isn't possible for a body lying flat (the arms aren't long enough)

3. Textile:
g) the weave pattern of the shroud does not match anything known from first century Mid East
h) the weave pattern matches medieval Europe well;
i) no example of the complex herringbone twill weave has even been shown to come from the first century Mid East

4. Testimony:
j) the d'Arcis Memo indicates the shroud was created around 1354 and was a known fake

5. Artistic:
k) the face of the image resembles medieval Byzantine style, with Gothic elements;
l) the unnaturally elongated body shape and extremities are typical of the elongated style the Late Medieval/High Gothic period

6. Reproducibility:
m) contrary to the claims of shroudies the image can and has been reproduced using medieval methods

7. Analytic:
n) microscopic examination, (including non-visible, polarised light and electron microscopy) shows the shroud is composed of common artistic pigments of the period of its origin
o) chemical testing shows the same
p) radiocarbon testing, carried out under highly controlled conditions by three laboratories. showed the cloth to originate between 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence)

8. Cultural:
q) the shroud does not match with what is documented and known of first century Jewish burial practices
r) nor does the shroud match the only extant sample of such burial cloths;
s) neither does the shroud match the biblical accounts of the burial cloths;
t) there are no demonstrated artefacts of the putative Jesus extant today
u) the supposed historical background does not suggest that such a cloth would have been preserved, certainly without publicity prior, to ~1355

9. Serological:
v) a minor point (as blood probably wouldn't survive this long anyway) but despite the best attempts of (and much lying and pseudoscience by) shroudies, there is no evidence for blood residue

Radiocarbon dating.
And a quick summary of the radiocarbon dating.
1. under heavy supervision a sample of the shroud were removed on 21APR1988 by Riggi; the strip came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas and was split into three pieces and sealed into containers by Ballestrero and Tite.
2. the samples were subjected to a dating technique called accelerator mass spectroscopy, selected because it required less sample material than earlier techniques; three labs, Oxford, Arizona and Zürich were selected to carry out the testing
3. cleaning was done with expert input (including Proctor & Gamble), this removed ~30% of the sample mass. Each laboratory used slightly different methods; hot ether, ultrasonic bath, vacuum pipette, repeated acid and alkali baths with intermediate washing, detergents, ethanol, bleach
4. the three laboratories analysed shroud samples in conjunction with three other supplied sample of known provenance
5. all three analyses agreed, the shroud dates from 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence)
6. the results were formally published in Nature in February 1989:
“These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the shroud of Turin is medieval”
7. accusations from believers began almost immediately accusing scientists of faking the tests or substituting samples.
8. later various claims of mysterious contaminants or patching were invoked to justify non-acceptance of the dating results

And finally more than any shroudie ever wanted to know about decontamination of the shroud samples.
Each laboratory (Zürich, Oxford and Arizona) carried out a comprehensive, multi-stage, cleaning of their sample. Firstly by microscopic examination and removal of gross contaminants, followed by preliminary cleaning using a mix of ultrasonic bathing, vacuum pipetting and/or hot ether soaking.
After this the samples were split and more stringent methods were used.

Zürich.
The Zürich group split each ultrasonically cleansed sample in half; the first half of the original sample was again split into three parts and these [one sixth portions] were subjected to different tratments:
1. soaking in room temperature baths of 0.5% hydrochloric acid, 0.25% sodium hydroxide and then acid again; samples were rinsed with purified water between each course.
2. no further treatment
3. soaking in hot (80°C) 5% hydrochloric acid, 2.5% sodium hydroxide and then acid again; samples were rinsed with purified water between each course.

The second batch of samples were retained until after the first radiocarbon dating run was completed. As this showed no evidence of contamination, the second set was split into two portions, to which the weak and strong chemical treatments were applied.

Arizona.
The Arizona group split the shroud sample into four subsamples.
1. one pair of subsamples was treated by soaking in dilute hydrochloric acid, dilute sodium hydroxide and again acid, with purified water rinsing in between baths.
2. the second pair of subsamples was treated with two commercial detergents (with advice supplied by Proctor & Gamble), distilled water and 0.1% hydrochloric acid; after this the samples were then submitted to a Soxhlet extraction with ethanol for an hour, followed by further washing with distilled water at 70°C in an ultrasonic bath.

Oxford.
The Oxford group divided their pre-cleaned sample into three parts.
1. all three parts were bathed in 1 molar hydrochloric acid at 80°C for two hours followed by 1 molar sodium hydroxide at 80°C for two hours and again in acid, with rinsing in between.
2. two of the three samples were then bleached in 2.5% sodium oxychloride [bleach] for thirty minutes.

Each laboratory used the same techniques on the four cloth samples provided, the shroud and the three controls with one exception; one of the control samples used at Zürich disintegrated while being cleaned and so it was additionally centrifuged to retain the material.

As a result of this overwhelming evidence it is reasonable to assume that:

The "Shroud" is a medieval fake.

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Point of order re your 2.f.

It is quite possible for people like me that have long arms, and as a consequence, lying flat, can easily cover the genital areas with one's hands. You will be relieved to know that I am not going to offer a pic as proof.
 
Point of order re your 2.f.

It is quite possible for people like me that have long arms, and as a consequence, lying flat, can easily cover the genital areas with one's hands. You will be relieved to know that I am not going to offer a pic as proof.
:D
Thank you for that correction. Perhaps I'll need to try some experimentation....
 
Because all the paintings of the crucifixion show a loincloth.
Well... ok, but the biblical account sais he was naked. The loincloth is added (like the shroud's crossed hands over the Holy Johnson) for the same reason that the naked Adam and Eve are always depicted as conveniently having a branch or something in front of their genetalia. "Check out the Savior's schlong" was not considered fine artistic expression.
 
Well... ok, but the biblical account sais he was naked. The loincloth is added (like the shroud's crossed hands over the Holy Johnson) for the same reason that the naked Adam and Eve are always depicted as conveniently having a branch or something in front of their genetalia. "Check out the Savior's schlong" was not considered fine artistic expression.
I assumed they'd put his hands there for when he woke up, blokes often have a "resurrection" when they wake up.
 
No, I said the samples were switched as an answer to your question, "what do you think happened?"

I don't even need to explain why the heterogeneity of the samples invalidates the carbon 14 test.

If the carbon 14 dating fails the chi^2 test, then the results are no good.

You keep on saying the samples were heterogenous, supporting this with statistical arguments. Pre-retirement I spent several decades as a statistician with a special interest in uncertainty of measurement. I consider your statistical approaches spectacularly inappropriate. I tried to suggest this gently in my earlier reply (#98) but you don't seem to have taken that on board.

Despite my experience, I have neither the time or access to the data to form a firm personal opinion on the heterogeneity. However an expert opinion from someone with "The results, together with the statistical assessment of the data prepared in the British Museum" was included in the Wikiwand and Wikipedia articles, both of which you linked to without mentioning this point.
As reported in Nature, Anthos Bray of the Instituto di Metrologia 'G. Colonetti', Turin, "confirmed that the results of the three laboratories were mutually compatible, and that, on the evidence submitted, none of the mean results was questionable."
If you want to continue with your heterogeneity argument, you really need to address that expert opinion.
 
I assumed they'd put his hands there for when he woke up, blokes often have a "resurrection" when they wake up.

I saw something about this recently. Apparently this is because REM sleep occurs with significant vasodilation. I call it, "Dream Wood." Doesn't matter what you are dreaming about, it's the process of dreaming.
 
I saw something about this recently. Apparently this is because REM sleep occurs with significant vasodilation. I call it, "Dream Wood." Doesn't matter what you are dreaming about, it's the process of dreaming.
I thought it was the opposite? You get "rise and shine" because you are in your deepest sleep in the morning, and your blood pressure lowers, giving the same physiological reaction that Viagra was accidentally found to produce.

REM sleep.is much earlier in the sleep cycle, which is why many remember dreams if woken up in thr night, but don't remember them if waking normally in the morning.
 
I thought it was the opposite? You get "rise and shine" because you are in your deepest sleep in the morning,

According to my watch, my "deep sleep" is generally within the first hour. I think that is correct. For example, when the tooth fairy used to come for the kids, she always came right after they fell asleep because that was their deepest sleep, so you could disturb them and not wake them.

REM sleep is generally later, or even closer to morning in twilight sleep.
 
According to my watch, my "deep sleep" is generally within the first hour. I think that is correct. For example, when the tooth fairy used to come for the kids, she always came right after they fell asleep because that was their deepest sleep, so you could disturb them and not wake them.

REM sleep is generally later, or even closer to morning in twilight sleep.
According to WebMD, REM sleep occurs within 90 minutes of falling asleep. But morning wood is triggered by testosterone levels peaking in the morning. The ◊◊◊◊ I learn here.
 

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