Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

theprestige said:
I think you're still missing the point. Strippers are the product. Diversity in the product line isn't the issue. A successful product line is based entirely on what your target customers actually want. "The customer is always right", and all that. Diversity in management is what DEI is aimed at, at least in the US.
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How many strip clubs have "management"? As far as I know (and I've never been to one so I don't really know so feel free to correct me) a club usually has an owner, who makes all of the hiring and financial decisions, perhaps with a few employees like bartenders and maybe contracts an external accountant. Could be completely wrong about this, and maybe strip joints have a whole HR section and financial team.

Also, I'd like to say this. All of these arguments are plagued by binary thinking. Either you hire someone because of race, or you don't hire someone because of race. Either a strip club employs men or a strip club doesn't employ men. The Real Worldtm doesn't work like that. These decisions have to be made in context. Which is why this whole discussion is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.
 
arthwollipot said:
Now you're talking about a spherical cow in a vacuum, which is fine for theoretical physics, but people are different from each other. You can't just arbitrarily control for those variables.
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Actually, I can, because I just did. It's just a hypothetical, and holding the variables constant except the one in question can be useful for clarifying all sorts of things.

But, as I said, if you don't want to engage with it, that's fine.
 
Paul2 said:
What if the decision came down to that variable, though? I don't see you can reasonably claim that every case could never come down to a single variable. My hypothetical is exactly that case in which it is largely a matter of a single variable.
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Not in this case, no. No two people are absolutely identical except for one variable, especially one as volatile as race.
Paul2 said:
I'm trying to be as generous as I can to you.
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I appreciate that, but I cannot answer your hypothetical as it stands. Sorry.
 
arthwollipot said:
Not in this case, no. No two people are absolutely identical except for one variable, especially one as volatile as race.
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I’ve been careful to qualify my statements and to not speak in absolutes, most prominently here:
Paul2 said:
the decision operationally and functionally comes down to the factors in my original scenario because the others equal out or are so minimally different as to be irrelevant.
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my bolding, not in the original
arthwollipot said:
I appreciate that, but I cannot answer your hypothetical as it stands. Sorry.
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I've metaphorically tossed a coin when the playing field has got down to 2 candidates that I couldn't decide between on any objective measure. In the UK interviewees are entitled to any notes, test results etc. made during the interview process so you wouldn't write down "gave the job to minority X candidate because we have a diversity policy" as that would probably be classed as unlawful discrimination against another candiate. I suppose you could have an "unspoken" policy to do so but that would also be unlawful and could open your company up to multiple employment tribunals.
 
arthwollipot said:
How many strip clubs have "management"? As far as I know (and I've never been to one so I don't really know so feel free to correct me) a club usually has an owner, who makes all of the hiring and financial decisions, perhaps with a few employees like bartenders and maybe contracts an external accountant. Could be completely wrong about this, and maybe strip joints have a whole HR section and financial team.

Also, I'd like to say this. All of these arguments are plagued by binary thinking. Either you hire someone because of race, or you don't hire someone because of race. Either a strip club employs men or a strip club doesn't employ men. The Real Worldtm doesn't work like that. These decisions have to be made in context. Which is why this whole discussion is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.
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My wife used to bartend at a jazz club downtown that was in a complex which also contained a dance club and a strip club under the same ownership. I used to come pick her up after work. Since the jazz club closed earlier, I usually had to wait for her in the strip club.

The owner didn't manage. He had a manager for that who oversaw all three bars. Each bar also had its own manager and assistant manager. (The nightclub had multiple assistant managers.) There was also a woman (a former dancer) who managed the dancers, a bar manager, and a kitchen manager. (Yes, apparently some people eat at strip clubs.)

So there as a fair amount of management structure there. This probably varies with the size of the club and how "upscale" it is.

But as theprestige correctly pointed out, the dancers are the product.
 
Paul2 said:
Let's try to operationalize this. You have in vote in who is going to get hired. It's down to two candidates:

Candidate A: African American, qualified and so will do a perfectly fine job
Candidate B: white, better qualifications than A - not outrageously so, but still clearly better

Maybe play around with whether this job is professional, trade, or menial.

Does some people needing a bigger slice of the pie mean that you go with A? If not, then at what point does that come into play, if at all?
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Not addressed to me, but....

The policies that I've encountered have all been of the type to make sure you aren't discounting someone because of their race/sex etc. One of the types of DEI that theprestige outlined earlier. (I suspect this is the most common manifestation.) So I'm not giving someone extra points for their race. Unless there's a real good job related reason to do so, that is. If I'm hiring a coach, for example, I might want to consider how that coach would relate with the kids they will be coaching. Maybe I think there is value in a girls' volleyball coach being female. Not the only consideration, and my daughter's coaches were mostly male, but It's a factor.
 
arthwollipot said:
It's not a code. Read a dictionary.
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I'm 100% certain you didn't consult a dictionary before choosing that word. So I'm not interested in an arbitrary dictionary definition. I'm interested in what you think people in this thread are overlooking.

If you won't provide your definition, will you at least provide a specific example of the shortcoming you have in mind?
arthwollipot said:
This conversation.
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Thanks.
 
theprestige said:
I'm 100% certain you didn't consult a dictionary before choosing that word. So I'm not interested in an arbitrary dictionary definition. I'm interested in what you think people in this thread are overlooking.
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I didn't choose that word. It's literally part of the DEI initialism. And I've said all along that my definition is the same as the dictionary definition.

And what people in this thread are overlooking is the fact that "inclusion" means that nobody is excluded, not that some are unfairly privileged over others, which seems to be the predominant interpretation here. It's not about promoting a person arbitrarily, it's about making sure that certain groups of people aren't overlooked.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why don't you ever just answer the question?
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Excuse me. I have been answering questions. Some questions do not need to be asked. The definition of the word "inclusion" is one of them. It's not a code. It's not some kind of secret language. The meaning is right there in the dictionary.
 
arthwollipot said:
Sure, it's not the rightist boogeyperson that they refer to as "DEI".
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DEI is about race/sex based consideration. I ask you: what is the difference between equal opporunity and DEI? But you, yourself, upthread wrote that it is okay to treat people differently. And for DEI, than means pre-judging people based on race or sex.
 
arthwollipot said:
How many strip clubs have "management"? As far as I know (and I've never been to one so I don't really know so feel free to correct me) a club usually has an owner, who makes all of the hiring and financial decisions, perhaps with a few employees like bartenders and maybe contracts an external accountant. Could be completely wrong about this, and maybe strip joints have a whole HR section and financial team.

Also, I'd like to say this. All of these arguments are plagued by binary thinking. Either you hire someone because of race, or you don't hire someone because of race. Either a strip club employs men or a strip club doesn't employ men. The Real Worldtm doesn't work like that. These decisions have to be made in context. Which is why this whole discussion is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.
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Yup, strip joints are sexist and there is not much you can do about it as long a men like to see naked women. And I don't see that changing....
 
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