Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

How about a 200 pound boxer who self identifies as svelt and demands to be allowed to compete for the Bantumweight title?

Which is the reset argument at its core: why do we accept self ID for sex/gender and nothing much else? Race, height, weight... all objectively observable and non negotiable (race can be a little dicey). Why does what someone's self image in terms of gender outweigh the others?

 

[HansMustermann]

But to your point: what do you wear when someone else is not dressing you up, and it's your choice? Are you as likely to go to the market in fishnets as slacks? Is your daily presentation dramatically different than most German men (I think you're in Germany)?

Thing is, and the point some of us have been trying to make, is that there isn't all that much of a difference. It's northern Europe. Sure, the winters aren't nearly as cold as farther east, but most summers are fairly cool too. We get the occasional 30C summer (about 86F), but not a lot of days like that. Most of the time you see more women in pants than women in skirts.

Does that mean they're living like men? Or are gender-fluid based on the temperature? I'd ask them, but then I might have to also explain it to HR.

And honestly, I don't think I've even seen anyone in fishnets outside of porn.

So, anyway, as others have said before, the whole idea of living like a man vs living as a woman is based mostly on stereotypes that are fairly outdated by now.

 

[Thermal]

I think most of us have already agreed to something more or less along the lines that if that trans is not in the women's safe spaces or sport, meh, carry on.

Ok, but in terms of the sincere transwoman, who just wants to live their lives like other women, and who feels as vulnerable and uncomfortable in a men's room as a bio woman: what do we say to her? She will not be accepted because we believe the slippery slope will have bearded rapists "allowed" to stalk in the ladies room?

I actually had an experience recently, where a bald taxi driver I knew was suddenly in a blonde wig and dress. What made it funny is that he still looked and sounded nothing like a woman. But hey, I kept it professional, gave the usual tip and all that. Not gonna rain on someone's cosplay

Dig it. Let your freak flag fly, I'll cheer you on.

 

[Paul2]

Framing behavior as "aping a stereotype" is the problem.

This is actually at the entire crux of this discussion, and has been since about halfway through the first edition of it.

I'm going to try to steel-man a trans-favorable position regarding aping a stereotype.

First, we stipulate that males and females are different beyond anatomy. This includes psychological differences. We are not blank slates with regard to sex, even psychologically.

Some/most/?? trans people have some significant aspect of the opposite sex within their psychology because they were born that way, because they are not just a blank slate.

But they also live within a society and culture with sex stereotypes. They perceive/filter/express their trans-ness through the lens of social sex stereotypes. There is some sort of interplay between the trans nature and the social reality they find themselves in that does not deny either.

I'd encourage everyone to first improve this steel-manning, followed by critique.

 

[Thermal]

Thing is, and the point some of us have been trying to make, is that there isn't all that much of a difference. It's northern Europe. Sure, the winters aren't nearly as cold as farther east, but most summers are fairly cool too. We get the occasional 30C summer (about 86F), but not a lot of days like that. Most of the time you see more women in pants than women in skirts.

Does that mean they're living like men? Or are gender-fluid based on the temperature? I'd ask them, but then I might have to also explain it to HR.

And honestly, I don't think I've even seen anyone in fishnets outside of porn.

So, anyway, as others have seen before, the whole idea of living like a man vs living as a woman is based mostly on stereotypes that are fairly outdated by now.

Not others: you. You say you are as comfortable in a dress as slacks, and I believe you. But what's your closet looking like? 50/50 or pretty much all stuff from the Mens Department?

I ask because you say you are very comfortable in different places on the gender representation spectrum, and I have no reason to doubt that. But if another Northern European was to look at you, would they have any question about your gender ID or are you generally conforming to that wide part of the Bell Curve?

 

[HansMustermann]

Ok, but in terms of the sincere transwoman, who just wants to live their lives like other women, and who feels as vulnerable and uncomfortable in a men's room as a bio woman: what do we say to her? She will not be accepted because we believe the slippery slope will have bearded rapists "allowed" to stalk in the ladies room?

Well,

1. Again. It's not a slippery slope, it's present day statistics. It's only a slippery slope if it's along the lines of "if we allow/disallow X, then we'll allow/disallow Y". E.g., "if we allow homosexual marriage, next thing we'll be allowing paedophilia and bestiality." If it's about present day statistics, there is no slippery slope. E.g., saying that the 3% of drivers that are unlicensed cause 18.4% of fatal accidents is not a slippery slope.

2. Then we're back to: how do you know who is that sincere and who not? Simple scenario: You're a woman in the women's locker room at the pool and someone looking like Chad Thundercock in a wig enters. How do you tell if it's someone who is whatever you count as a sincere trans woman, or some cis male perv who just wants to see women naked? Honest question.

You keep answering that yeah, but trans knows in their head if they're that or not. And sure, I'll grant that. But without having mind-reading powers, how do YOU tell?

 

[HansMustermann]

Not others: you. You say you are as comfortable in a dress as slacks, and I believe you. But what's your closet looking like? 50/50 or pretty much all stuff from the Mens Department?

At one point it was pretty much 50/50. These days, it's just men stuff. Well, I say men stuff, but if I go out right now I'll see most women wearing the same kind of pants. So does it still count as men stuff? Or is it just gender-neutral by now?

 

[Pixel42]

Ok, but in terms of the sincere transwoman, who just wants to live their lives like other women, and who feels as vulnerable and uncomfortable in a men's room as a bio woman: what do we say to her?

We could maybe ask her whose vulnerability and discomfort should be prioritised: hers, and the less than1% of biological males like her, or that of the 100% of biological females who she wants to deprive of their safe spaces.

 

[theprestige]

Going back to the above: it's the social aspect (making this kind of a Miss Manners discussion). Say were all in a group here. One member is a trans woman. A few members keep referring to her as a man, despite her objections, saying they can't be denied the right to assert biological reality. This thread is in the Social Issues forum, so I think its fair game to talk about how we confront this issue in a social setting.

I don't think we need to confront this in a social setting. I certainly don't think we need to seek a consensus on what "living like a woman" actually means, in order to get through a social setting without being a jerk. I don't understand why this lack of consensus is necessary for you. If you think it's a jerk move to insist on biological pronouns, don't do it. And maybe don't hang out with jerks. It's not a big social mystery.

Ok, but in terms of the sincere transwoman, who just wants to live their lives like other women, and who feels as vulnerable and uncomfortable in a men's room as a bio woman: what do we say to her? She will not be accepted because we believe the slippery slope will have bearded rapists "allowed" to stalk in the ladies room?

That's a different question.

Also, we've already seen that slippery slope manifest. It's no longer a question of faith. Fiat self-ID is demonstrably a bad idea that causes far more harm than it prevents.

Obviously what counts as a "sincere transwoman" would go a long way towards establishing your much sought-after consensus definition of woman, but it's not necessary. At this point, it suffices to say that no amount of sincerity entitles a male to access safe spaces for females, so that's that as far as "we" - public policy - are concerned.

If you're of the opinion that sincere transwomanhood should be addressed separately from gender self-ID in public policy: My position is that it must come down to "papers please". If you can present a reputable medical diagnosis, including social transition as a legitimate treatment for the diagnosed condition, then sure. Enter the women's restroom, and show your papers on demand.

Or maybe that's just not a realistic scenario. Maybe social transition isn't actually a healthy treatment for the condition.

Regardless, access cannot be on the basis of fiat self-ID.

 

[theprestige]

We could maybe ask her whose vulnerability and discomfort should be prioritised: hers, and the less than1% of biological males like her, or that of the 100% of biological females who she wants to deprive of their safe spaces.

We could also maybe suggest that she seek treatment for her condition, rather than enablement. We don't enable schizophrenics. We don't enable pedophiles.

Maybe Thermal should explain to us why dysphoria, of all mental health conditions, should be enabled rather than mitigated.

 

[Thermal]

Well,

1. Again. It's not a slippery slope, it's present day statistics. It's only a slippery slope if it's along the lines of "if we allow/disallow X, then we'll allow/disallow Y". E.g., "if we allow homosexual marriage, next thing we'll be allowing paedophilia and bestiality." If it's about present day statistics, there is no slippery slope. E.g., saying that the 3% of drivers that are unlicensed cause 18.4% of fatal accidents is not a slippery slope.

2. Then we're back to: how do you know who is that sincere and who not? Simple scenario: You're a woman in the women's locker room at the pool and someone looking like Chad Thundercock in a wig enters. How do you tell if it's someone who is whatever you count as a sincere trans woman, or some cis male perv who just wants to see women naked? Honest question.

You keep answering that yeah, but trans knows in their head if they're that or not. And sure, I'll grant that. But without having mind-reading powers, how do YOU tell?

Well that's the whole dilemma, right? How do you let the trans woman just live her life, while keeping Chad from getting his cheap jollies, or otherwise assaulting women?

I have a similar problem at work (construction). A new customer may feel uncomfortable with me as a scruffy stranger having access to their home. After they get to know me, they know they are safer and more secure with me being there than not. I earn that trust.

How does a sincere transwoman earn that trust? Medical transitioning? What if they can't afford it? Or do we tell them that they have to suck it up as second classers because we think there is some chance that they might be Chad?

 

[Thermal]

We could also maybe suggest that she seek treatment for her condition, rather than enablement. We don't enable schizophrenics. We don't enable pedophiles.

A sincere transwoman poses no harm to themselves or others just by virtue of being trans, so it's not something that needs to be "cured" for anyone's protection.

Maybe Thermal should explain to us why dysphoria, of all mental health conditions, should be enabled rather than mitigated.

[Chico mode]
Ees no my yob, man.
[/Chico mode]

 

[Thermal]

We could maybe ask her whose vulnerability and discomfort should be prioritised: hers, and the less than1% of biological males like her, or that of the 100% of biological females who she wants to deprive of their safe spaces.

You pretty sure about A) every transwoman posing a threat, and B) that threat applying to 100% of women?

The transwoman I personally know actually goes to Planet Fitness and uses their locker room and uses women's rest rooms. She has said to me straight out that no one even knows the difference (we last talked about 2 years ago and the topic of "passing" came up, which she was very open about, as I knew her pre-transition).

 

[Pixel42]

How does a sincere transwoman earn that trust?

Women have been quietly accepting transwomen they know and trust into their safe spaces for years, safe in the knowledge that if they make a mistake they need only raise the alarm. It's having total strangers we neither know nor trust billeted on us without our consent that we object to.

 

[Pixel42]

You pretty sure about A) every transwoman posing a threat, and B) that threat applying to 100% of women?

For the umpteenth time: it's male sexual predators posing as transwomen that are the problem.

 

[Thermal]

For the umpteenth time: it's male sexual predators posing as transwomen that are the problem.

Yes, caught that the first umpteenth times. It's what we continue to talk about.

What are the stats on predators posing as women actually assaulting women? Are they as great or greater than in any other private or public setting?

Eta: I'm a guard dog by nature and very instinctively agree with you. What I'm wondering is how realistic that fear is.

Like, if the fear is assault, do you think wearing a wig is what determines whether or not they will assault? Bad guys are notoriously irreverent about rules. If I wanted to attack someone, the sign on the door is not affecting me one iota. The only issue is likelihood of someone calling attention.

And if the issue is Chad looking at women, that's a modesty issue, more than safety? I'm not trying to downplay, but what the fear is and if it exists more greatly because of being able to walk in a door unchallenged is kind of on the table.

 

[Pixel42]

Sorry, I just met my quota for answering the same question for the umpteenth time. Try reading the thread. You shouldn't need to go back more than a dozen pages.

 

[Thermal]

Sorry, I just met my quota for answering the same question for the umpteenth time. Try reading the thread. You shouldn't need to go back more than a dozen pages.

Ya, then something else was answered a hundred pages ago, and something else a thousand pages before that.

That's why I asked if there was a resolution already reached. I don't have a few loose weeks to reread this massive thread, which at a bi-yearly glance, seems incomprehensible.

 

[HansMustermann]

You pretty sure about A) every transwoman posing a threat, and B) that threat applying to 100% of women?

Pretty sure we need neither to make a risk assessment. Just like requiring that unlicensed drivers stay off the road requires neither
A) every unlicensed driver in the world being unsafer, nor
B) that 100% of humans are at risk from them. (I mean, pretty sure they're not gonna ride over the folks at the antarctic research station)

 

[HansMustermann]

That's why I asked if there was a resolution already reached. I don't have a few loose weeks to reread this massive thread, which at a bi-yearly glance, seems incomprehensible.

I always found it funny when people obviously have the time to spend days arguing an issue, but don't have the time to read half a dozen pages or so back to see the evidence already presented. Repeatedly. I mean, we're on page 54, and you had some statistics for sex offences in message #1,940 on page 49. That's literally just 5 pages back.

And it actually was just 1 (ONE) page back or so when you joined the fray on page 50. Literally the previous page. And was still being discussed on the same page 50 where you joined the discussion. My last message discussing that statistic was literally on the same page 50 where you joined, exactly the 16th message from the bottom of the page at that point.

I mean, I dunno, if you're not interested in something to do even that absolutely minimal reading, fair enough, but maybe you shouldn't be arguing about it, rather than insisting that we have another reset and it goes round and round like the wheels on the bus just for you. Just an idea.

I mean, if you complain about the thread being a mile long, that's how it got to be this long in the first place.