Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

theprestige said:
It doesn't help that schools turning boys into girls is a thing that's already happening.
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This is a typical misogynist ill informed view. The real issue isn't about boys, but about girls. The number of boys wanting to transition hasn't really changed (it may be more overt). The big and concerning shift is the number of girls being tracked into transitioning. Puberty is difficult for girls, sexuality is confusing, girls that could grow up to be unhappy lesbians are being directed into being miserable trans men*. BUT the rhetoric is all about the much smaller number of boys.
 
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An unusual request.Samson was suspended just as we moved to the new software, being new to the software I think their permissions being reset when their suspension was supposed to end didnt fully work as expected. It may have appeared that they were permanently banned. If anyone knows them on another social media platform could you let them know they are not banned and they should be able to return. Obviously they may not wish to but I wouldn't like them to think they had been permanently banned. Obviously if they return we owe them an apology. Please don't discuss this in this thread.
Posted By: Darat
 
Thermal said:
Ok: if they get ye Olde slice and dice surgeries, are they legit or still what they were born as?

I ask because it would clarify if the issue was less about identification and more about packing pipe.
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As I have mentioned before, there are biological differences that don't go away if one is castrated or even if they take hormones. Leg muscles still are connected slightly differently to accommodate the wider pelvis for women. The fibre composition of muscles is different in men than in women. The contraction speed is higher in men than in women. The skeleton is heavier, i.e., stronger in men. The fight-or-flight wiring in men favours fight, while in females it favours flight, as shown on MRI studies. (Though in the interest of full disclosure, strangely enough, a lot of homosexual men do get the female brain wiring there.) Etc.

Castration changes none of that. Yes, you will get less muscle bulk without testosterone, but it will still be the male fibres.

What I'm getting at is that the male will still have a statistical advantage in women's sports, or for that matter in a prison fight.
 
Rolfe said:
I think they were castrated, not dickless.
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That's only true for the Ottomans in his question. In China, castration included removing the penis. They lopped off the dick and the ball sack at the same time. (Sad to say, not even ancient history. The last imperial eunuch died in 1996.)

As far as I know, they were still regarded as men, and had career options, so to speak, that were not available to women (and indeed the confucian administration would have had a fit if a woman had such duties.) That included high ranks in the administration and military commanders. E.g., the famous admiral Zheng He was lacking his plumbing.
 
If the lack of male role models in contemporary stories and insufficiently masculine education turns boys into girls, how come throughout history most girls haven't turned into boys?
 
HansMustermann said:
As I have mentioned before, there are biological differences that don't go away if one is castrated or even if they take hormones. Leg muscles still are connected slightly differently to accommodate the wider pelvis for women. The fibre composition of muscles is different in men than in women. The contraction speed is higher in men than in women. The skeleton is heavier, i.e., stronger in men. The fight-or-flight wiring in men favours fight, while in females it favours flight, as shown on MRI studies. (Though in the interest of full disclosure, strangely enough, a lot of homosexual men do get the female brain wiring there.) Etc.

Castration changes none of that. Yes, you will get less muscle bulk without testosterone, but it will still be the male fibres.

What I'm getting at is that the male will still have a statistical advantage in women's sports, or for that matter in a prison fight.
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Oh, agreed. Bio males are bio males, and have physiological advantages that can't be swept under the rug.

I'm thinking in terms of the social aspect, whether you call a trans woman he or she. Like, it doesn't bother me to call a transitioned/fully commited trans woman "she", but with an aterisk when it comes down to physical competition.

I dunno. I just peek in here once or twice a year to see if things have progressed, which you would kind of expect after the first few pages.
 
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Thermal said:
You guys making any progress on those who are in the gray area, ie biologically one but for all intents and purposes living like the other?
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What does living like a man or woman mean, though? I don't live "like a woman" or "like a man", I live like me. Apart from reproductive biology, which is only really pertinent during pregnancy and breastfeeding, everything that people think of about living "like a woman" or "like a man" is regressive gender stereotyping.
 
Agatha said:
What does living like a man or woman mean, though? I don't live "like a woman" or "like a man", I live like me. Apart from reproductive biology, which is only really pertinent during pregnancy and breastfeeding, everything that people think of about living "like a woman" or "like a man" is regressive gender stereotyping.
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That’s very transphobic of you not to put a gender label on yourself </sarc>.
 
Agatha said:
What does living like a man or woman mean, though? I don't live "like a woman" or "like a man", I live like me. Apart from reproductive biology, which is only really pertinent during pregnancy and breastfeeding, everything that people think of about living "like a woman" or "like a man" is regressive gender stereotyping.
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Right, saying you feel like a man or woman doesn't seem to mean anything. So I try to put myself in that position:

I'm a bio male. I don't particularly feel like "a man", I'm just Thermal. But if I looked down and saw boobs and an innie rather than an outlie, I'd feel powerfully disoriented, like something was wrong. I assume that's what a trans person would experience, so hell ya, I'd work with them on whatever they wanted to be called/treated as. I mean, why ◊◊◊◊ with them? No skin off my nose, and it makes them feel more at ease.

On the flip, if being a man or woman doesn't really mean anything in particular, then call people whatever you like. If it doesn't clearly mean anything, then there's nothing to object to.

Which is back to my original question: does it mean anything or not? That's pretty much basic skepticism. Define the stuff in its four corners first. Then test it out.

A woman is an adult human female. Pretty straightforward. If you feel like you are the other sex, ie look down and see the wrong plumbing, you ask people to work with you on it. If you have some vague woo-ish bull ◊◊◊◊ going on about woman being some nebulous state, you're just using the wrong word and ya need to sit down and get yourself sorted out about what you really mean, which is definitionally not a problem of being a man or woman.
 
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Matthew Best said:
Well, you might be right - I wasn't actually able to find the first thread on this subject in order to check.
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It started with a trans woman weightlifter, who wanted to compete in women's lifting. IMMHOO, it should have been declared a massive derail long ago, literally years back, but it seems to be working out leaving the broad gender bender thingies here.
 
Thermal said:
I'm a bio male. I don't particularly feel like "a man", I'm just Thermal. But if I looked down and saw boobs and an innie rather than an outlie, I'd feel powerfully disoriented, like something was wrong.
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Just like I'd feel if I came home and the bathroom and kitchen were swapped around. But that's based on past experience. It doesn't come out of nowhere. I wasn't born with the knowledge that the bathroom should be that-a-way and the kitchen that-a-way.

I also can't help pointing out that the women don't seem to have that problem. I don't think many remain permanently confused that they went from flat as children to having boobs later. They just learn that yeah, that is the new reality.

I must also mention again that a lot of the new generation of trans also don't seem to have that problem, since they make absolutely no attempt to look any different.

That said, I'm ok with people having an operation or whatever, as long as they're adults. If looking down and seeing a different landscape makes them feel any better, hell, go for it.
 
Thermal said:
It's meaningful. Maybe not crazy important, maybe not bound by ironclad rules, but certainly meaningful.
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I can't see how, perhaps you can help?

If I decided that, after 71 years, I would no longer "live as a woman" but would instead "live as a man" starting tomorrow, what precisely would I need to do differently?

Or, if it's easier: if, after however many years it is, you decided you would no longer "live as a man" but would instead "live as a woman" starting tomorrow, what precisely would you need to do differently?

I live in a country where women have equal rights to men, and where everyone has the right to wear whatever they wish, present themselves however suits them, fancy whoever it comes naturally to them to fancy. The only ways in which the lives of men and women (should) differ are due to the actual biological differences between them. So what does it mean for someone who is biologically one sex to "live as if" they were the other?
 
Pixel42 said:
I can't see how, perhaps you can help?

If I decided that, after 71 years, I would no longer "live as a woman" but would instead "live as a man" starting tomorrow, what precisely would I need to do differently?

Or, if it's easier: if, after however many years it is, you decided you would no longer "live as a man" but would instead "live as a woman" starting tomorrow, what precisely would you need to do differently?

I live in a country where women have equal rights to men, and where everyone has the right to wear whatever they wish, present themselves however suits them, fancy whoever it comes naturally to them to fancy. The only ways in which the lives of men and women (should) differ are due to the actual biological differences between them. So what does it mean for someone who is biologically one sex to "live as if" they were the other?
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First off, I don't think anyone "decides" one day to be fundamentally someone else, any more than a tall guy would decide to be short one morning.

But broadly, they would act and model themselves in a way consistent with other women in their culture. The parameters, as I said, aren't ironclad, but it would not be "meaningless" to describe broadly how a woman in a given culture behaves and presents.
 
Thermal said:
First off, I don't think anyone "decides" one day to be fundamentally someone else, any more than a tall guy would decide to be short one morning.

But broadly, they would act and model themselves in a way consistent with other women in their culture. The parameters, as I said, aren't ironclad, but it would not be "meaningless" to describe broadly how a woman in a given culture behaves and presents.
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By what, clothes? I haven't worn a dress/skirt, heels or makeup in over thirty years. Hobbies? My idea of a perfect weekend is watching motor racing. Again, how does one live as a member of either sex without resorting to aping regressive gender stereotypes?
 
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