Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

I'm really not interested in that debate. I simply don't have the information to contribute anything meaningful. I was simply railing against your inaccurate 'decriminalised' comment.

I'm really not interested in debating rape conviction rates which, I admit, are low. Probably due to the whole 'presumption of innocence' thing.

To restate - you were railing against the then UK's Victims Commissioner Vera Baird's comment. If you want to argue that it's inaccurate then why don't you? What is the argument?

The conviction rate is obviously a disgrace.

 

[Poem]

I'm really not interested in that debate.

Right - so here's a question then (and I acknowledge its inappropriateness outside this thread):

Would you have sex knowing that a child could see and hear you?

 

[3point14]

To restate - you were railing against the then UK's Victims Commissioner Vera Baird's comment. If you want to argue that it's inaccurate then why don't you? What is the argument?

I've given you my argument. Something for which there have been successful prosecutions has not been decriminalised. That's it. That's the sum total of my contribution.

Right - so here's a question then (and I acknowledge its inappropriateness outside this thread):

Would you have sex knowing that a child could see and hear you?

This is a very odd question and I don't see the relevance.

Look, I know you're desperately looking for someone to argue with, but that's not me.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

It's come up on the thread before - and the word 'effectively' is key.

Dame Vera Baird publishes her second annual report: “It has without doubt been an eventful year for victims and witnesses” - Victims Commissioner

The Victims’ Commissioner has today (Wednesday 21 July 2021) published her annual report, providing a retrospective of the work and achievements

victimscommissioner.org.uk

Yes, you do push the "rape is 'effectively' decriminalised" bovine excrement a lot. I'll give you that being true.

 

[Poem]

I've given you my argument. Something for which there have been successful prosecutions has not been decriminalised. That's it. That's the sum total of my contribution.

Since no one is saying rape has been decriminalized there's no point in responding.

This is a very odd question and I don't see the relevance.
Look, I know you're desperately looking for someone to argue with, but that's not me.

Why is it odd?

Desperate to argue? Not at all. The desperation is in the warnings from the teaching unions, politicians and children's experts.

 

[Poem]

Yes, you do push the "rape is 'effectively' decriminalised" bovine excrement a lot. I'll give you that being true.

You should take that up with Vera Baird.

Where is the media push back suggesting she was wrong? Maybe there was. I haven't seen it.

 

[Poem]

Yes, you do push the "rape is 'effectively' decriminalised" bovine excrement a lot. I'll give you that being true.

Zero push back from you GF. Perhaps you should try again.

 

[theprestige]

"In England and Wales, more than 99% of rapes reported to police do not end in a conviction. This is the result of a criminal justice system that makes prosecuting rape extremely rare, lengthy and difficult." (City University of London).

"Research for the Home Office suggests that only 4% of cases of sexual violence reported to the UK police are found or suspected to be false. Studies carried out in Europe and in the US indicate rates of between 2% and 6%."

Okay, so it's 2% of rape allegations.

It's NOT 2% of convictable allegations.

Rapes don't often leave a lot of evidence, especially if they're not reported immediately. It seems reasonable to me that very few rape reports bring enough evidence to win the case at trial. This may have a lot to do with why there are so few convictions, regardless of how criminalized they are.

The burden is on you to show that the percentage should be higher, and why it should be higher.

 

[theprestige]

We know that false allegations are rare - somewhere around 4% - that might help.

(City University of London).

"Long delays in cases progressing through the system are directly linked to a decade of government funding cuts to the justice system. In the words of one prominent barrister: “having broken the legs of the justice system, the government now wants to score how fast it can run”."

It's a syatem-wide issue. Every crime has been effectively decriminalized by funding cuts.

 

[Poem]

Okay, so it's 2% of rape allegations.

It's NOT 2% of convictable allegations.

Rapes don't often leave a lot of evidence, especially if they're not reported immediately. It seems reasonable to me that very few rape reports bring enough evidence to win the case at trial. This may have a lot to do with why there are so few convictions, regardless of how criminalized they are.

The burden is on you to show that the percentage should be higher, and why it should be higher.

The article mentions rape myths. A conviction rate of < 2% is obviously a disgrace.

 

[Poem]

"Long delays in cases progressing through the system are directly linked to a decade of government funding cuts to the justice system. In the words of one prominent barrister: “having broken the legs of the justice system, the government now wants to score how fast it can run”."

It's a syatem-wide issue. Every crime has been effectively decriminalized by funding cuts.

Citation?

 

[theprestige]

The article mentions rape myths. A conviction rate of < 2% is obviously a disgrace.

I think the rape myths are a red herring. And repeatedly asserting your claim isn't the same as supporting it.

Citation?

You didn't actually read the City University of London article you linked, did you?

 

[Poem]

I think the rape myths are a red herring. And repeatedly asserting your claim isn't the same as supporting it.

Rape myths are considered as evidence of rape culture...so no red herring.

You didn't actually read the City University of London article you linked, did you?

Please provide the citation.

 

[theprestige]

Rape myths are considered as evidence of rape culture...so no red herring.


Please provide the citation.

You. Already. Did.

 

[Poem]

You. Already. Did.

I'm asking for a specific citation that backs up your: Every crime has been effectively decriminalized by funding cuts.

 

[Ziggurat]

Could you elaborate a bit on your 'understanding of human nature'? I'm genuinely interested.

It's like anything that provides an easy dopamine hit: some people can get addicted, and the addiction can interfere with other activities. It can also serve as a substitute for forming meaningful sexual relationships with actual people.

None of this harm requires anyone to rape or sexually assault anyone else.

This, for me, takes us back to slavery. It was banned but hasn't stopped it.... but we still feel better as a society for having done so.

But outlawing slavery has, in fact, dramatically reduced how much of it there is in places where it's outlawed. The fact that we feel better for having done so is pretty irrelevant next to the fact that the ban actually reduced the amount of it.

But you are suggesting that in places where porn is banned, porn might still be a significant contributor to the prevalence of rape and sexual assault (hence the high rates in places where porn is banned). And that logically requires one of two things: either the ban isn't effective in even reducing the amount of porn available, why bother, or that there's no dose/response curve for the effects of porn and that a little availability causes as much rapes as a lot of it. I don't find either explanation very plausible, but it doesn't matter, because in neither case would a ban accomplish any reduction in the number of rapes or sexual assaults. If you just want to feel smug for banning it even though a ban does nothing, I'm not interested in joining you.

Another more plausible interpretation is that porn is not in fact a significant driver of rape and sexual assault rates, and that other things matter far more. So if you're interested in reducing the rates of rape and sexual assault, focusing on those other factors is a better use of resources.

Here's a straightforward question (and I acknowledge it's inappropriateness outside this thread): Would you have sex knowing that a child could see and hear you?

I'm not willing to have sex with any third party, child or adult, observing.

 

[Poem]

I'm not willing to have sex with any third party, child or adult, observing.

Indeed, right answer - but that is what is happening with porn.

 

[Ziggurat]

We know that false allegations are rare - somewhere around 4% - that might help.

(City University of London).

Your source doesn't say 4%. This is what your source says:

These myths include the mistaken belief that false allegations are common, that “genuine” victims will report a rape to police without delay, and will provide a detailed, consistent account of the rape.

So what's their source for saying that false allegations aren't common? They don't provide one. I've seen similar figures before, but they were either unreliable or represented something other than the false rate (such as, for example, the rate that were demonstrated to be false in some particular sample).

In point of fact, it's almost impossible to accurately determine the rate of false accusations. We know it's not zero because there are some cases where the accusation is provably false. But for the exact same reason that real rapes can be hard to prosecute, false rape accusations are also hard to prove as false. Which makes it very, very easy to falsely accuse someone of rape and face no serious repercussions. Under such conditions, we should not be surprised if the true rate of false accusations is much higher than 4%, because the incentives to make false accusations are significant and the disincentives slight.

 

[Ziggurat]

Indeed, right answer - but that is what is happening with porn.

Sure, that's what porn is. So what? There are lots of things I'm not personally willing to do which shouldn't be banned. I'm also not willing to perform musical theater, but that doesn't mean no one else should. What I am personally willing or not willing to do isn't a useful metric for social policy decisions.

 

[Darat]

Indeed, right answer - but that is what is happening with porn.

To step outside the realm of porn, there have always been orgies, swingers' parties are still a thing and even dogging.

I'm a bit like Ziggurat, that's not my sexual kink but some people get off on watching other people in real life have sex with other people, some people get off by having sex with an audience. Porn is only an extension of that.