"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[Ziggurat]

Same as breaching other school codes, right?

No, that isn't right. First off, most school codes aren't about speech at all. Second, school speech codes are not all equivalent. Third...

So why is nobody complaining about them?

People are complaining about other school speech codes.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I think trans women should not compete in competitive women's sport, as Arthwollipot may have seen me say in other threads (the Paris Olympics thread, is one).

But I also think if someone has no beard and wears women's clothes and wants to be referred to as she/her I should respect that.

With change rooms, I think Pixel made a good point about how TRAs turned it into a big problem that wasn't there before. Sort of a Streisand Effect. Everyone's talking about it. However as a woman, in real life I haven't seen any evidence of a big problem, or even seen any problem with men in women's toilets, change rooms, etc. So I'm not sure if I'm on any particular "side" on that part of the debate.

 

[smartcooky]

How do you think things change in society, you think it just happens as if by magic?

It happens gradually over time... not as in his case, by mandate and enforcement.

 

[smartcooky]

And language hasn't changed at all since 1982.

Oh, it has changed. It just hasn't been forcibly changed by mandate as it has now.

Yes, there have been restrictions placed on speech, but so far, I can't think of one instance where people have been ordered to "speak to me, or about me, in a certain way using these specific words", and for there to have been consequences for non-compliance.

 

[Pixel42]

Posts like this say more about you than those you are directing it at. Calling someone a bigot for not bowing to all demands from trans activists is laughable.

I'm sure they would object if their position on this issue was labelled misogynistic, though that's more defensible than labelling most of the posters here as bigots or anti-trans. Which is not to say that there aren't people who are genuinely bigots and anti-trans, because there certainly are.

 

[arthwollipot]

? because they are justifiable? Your claim was that there is no punishment. There is. This response seems to completely miss the thread of discussion.

My claim was not that there is no punishment. I asked what the punishment is, and Ziggurat answered.

Please do not attribute thoughts to me that I have not expressed. It's rude.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's a fundamental area where there is a huge disagreement about how to ensure fairness. The other area is sex-segregated spaces such as saunas, changing rooms etc...

They are two separate issues, and they cannot be treated as though they are the same. One of those issues I don't care much about. The other I do. I'll talk about the things I care about, but not about the ones that bore me. Other people with more interest and knowledge will talk about that, and that's fine. But don't expect me to bother with it.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm sure they would object if their position on this issue was labelled misogynistic, though that's more defensible than labelling most of the posters here as bigots or anti-trans. Which is not to say that there aren't people who are genuinely bigots and anti-trans, because there certainly are.

Of course there are, but I try to make some allowance for the point of view of those with the trendy-lefty liberal progressive mindset (who are, in my view, every bit as obnoxious at their end of the spectrum as are white supremacists and fascists are at the other end - many of whom are also on this forum).

The position of those posters (and everyone knows who we are talking about here) is that anyone who disagrees with their extreme views in any way at all in even the slightest amount, is automatically labelled bigot, racist, homophobe, transphobe (take your pick - multiple choice is allowed).

One of them called me a bigot. I reject that - I stand on my record of 12 years here being an outspoken supporter of the rights of minorities and the LGBT community - anyone can go back and check my body of work since I joined in 2012. Coming from one of these extremist lefties, being called a bigot means nothing. They don't even understand what it means - and their lack of self-awareness is staggering!!

 

[Roboramma]

My claim was not that there is no punishment. I asked what the punishment is, and Ziggurat answered.

Okay, you asked what the punishment was. When it was explained, you didn't reply "Okay, thanks for answering" you acted as though it didn't matter that there was a punishment, which makes me wonder why you asked.

In the context of your original response, it certainly seemed like your question was rhetorical, but if you say it wasn't then fair enough.

 

[Darat]

It happens gradually over time... not as in his case, by mandate and enforcement.

There isn't one way. It can happen in fits and starts, it can happen slowly, it can happen from one day to the next, it can happen in a myriad of diverse ways.

 

[arthwollipot]

One of them called me a bigot. I reject that - I stand on my record of 12 years here being an outspoken supporter of the rights of minorities and the LGBT community - anyone can go back and check my body of work since I joined in 2012.

You claim to be a supporter of the LGBT community. The "T" is part of that, yet you refuse to acknowledge that transgender people are the gender they say they are. That's not support. That's opposition. I will even grant you the LBG part. But if you want to support the T part, you need to start by acknowledging transgender identity.

 

[Roboramma]

You claim to be a supporter of the LGBT community. The "T" is part of that, yet you refuse to acknowledge that transgender people are the gender they say they are. That's not support. That's opposition. I will even grant you the LBG part. But if you want to support the T part, you need to start by acknowledging transgender identity.

I've seen him deny that they are the sex associated with the gender they say they are. I haven't seen him deny that they are the gender they say they are.

 

[lionking]

You claim to be a supporter of the LGBT community. The "T" is part of that, yet you refuse to acknowledge that transgender people are the gender they say they are. That's not support. That's opposition. I will even grant you the LBG part. But if you want to support the T part, you need to start by acknowledging transgender identity.

Have you ever stopped to think that the LGB bit causes almost nobody any problems in this day and age? That they are treated as equal and free? That they do not threaten the freedoms and access that women have fought for for decades?

The T part also causes no problems for most when trans people want to live their lives and do not demand access to women’s sports and safe spaces etc? The problem arises when trans activists demand things which disadvantage women. You must realise this.

 

[arthwollipot]

Have you ever stopped to think that the LGB bit causes almost nobody any problems in this day and age? That they are treated as equal and free? That they do not threaten the freedoms and access that women have fought for for decades?

The T part also causes no problems for most when trans people want to live their lives and do not demand access to women’s sports and safe spaces etc? The problem arises when trans activists demand things which disadvantage women. You must realise this.

Since when are trans activists demanding things that disadvantage women?

And before you reply, no, bathroom privileges are neither a demand, nor do they disadvantage women, which is something that trans women are. No, I will not be participating in that thread.

Also, why is nobody complaining about trans men? Think about that question for just a little bit.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Same as breaching other school codes, right? So why is nobody complaining about them?

This has got to be the most illogical argument ever, when the problem is one of the codes. Two codes are not equal in any way, including being complaint-worthy, just because the possible punishments are the same. So at best this is a complete nonsequitur for anything.

I mean, during Stalin's time surrendering to the enemy carried the same possible penalties as treason. Or economic crimes, like being a "kulak"^*, carried the same penalty as murder.

That doesn't make them equally justified, nor equally worthy of complaint.

It's perfectly normal and valid to complain about those "economic crimes" policies (or that they effectively were a way to enforce the Holodomor,) and yet not complain about punishing murder. There is zero logical connection that requires that if you complained about one, you should also complain about the other.


^* a peasant who's too rich, sometimes by as little as that they could afford a tin roof; so you know they must have not given all the grain they should to the state

 

[arthwollipot]

Fair enough. I withdraw that line of argument.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Also, why is nobody complaining about trans men? Think about that question for just a little bit.

Because the trans-men don't pose the same problems to biological men? If a biological woman wants to call herself a man and compete in the same boxing weight category, he doesn't pose a higher risk of cracking the other guy's skull like when the reverse happens. Or if a trans-man actually demanded to be put in the men's prison, I don't think many would expect him to even be able to rape the others. Or in sports, if we had a trans-man insist to compete in, say, men's swimming, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have as big an advantage as in the opposite case. (In all swimming events, men's records are consistently about 90% shorter, to the point where even a moderately trained biological male high schooler can outcompete a top woman athlete.)

I'm sure you could figure it out yourself if you had taken your advice and thought about that question for just a little bit.

 

[Samson]

Since when are trans activists demanding things that disadvantage women?

And before you reply, no, bathroom privileges are neither a demand, nor do they disadvantage women, which is something that trans women are. No, I will not be participating in that thread.

Also, why is nobody complaining about trans men? Think about that question for just a little bit.

Posie Parker rails against people who call Buck Angel
He /Him

 

[lionking]

Since when are trans activists demanding things that disadvantage women?

And before you reply, no, bathroom privileges are neither a demand, nor do they disadvantage women, which is something that trans women are. No, I will not be participating in that thread.

Also, why is nobody complaining about trans men? Think about that question for just a little bit.

Oh please keep up. I know you have no interest in sport. But a lot of women do. They are being injured in contact sports by transwomen. At least acknowledge that.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I'm not interested and don't care about sports. My opinions on sports should be discounted.

Yet you insist on taking part in a discussion where one of the biggest problems is that biological men are pushing biological women out of sports, and making girls not even try. (Even boys would stop dreaming of becoming football stars if they knew they had to compete against whatever that makes that dream impossible.)

Worse yet, you then try to frame the discussion as if the niche you carved was the only thing that mattered to reach that conclusion.

I mean, using the same logic, I could pretend that the Holodomor was no big deal, because I'm a city boy, I'm not interested in and don't care about what happens in agriculture. Like even after someone mentions the problem, nope not interested in agriculture

And don't get me wrong, I don't say you SHOULD care about sports. Your hobbies are your own choice. But if you want to posit conclusions in a discussion where that matters, then the honest thing to do is either get informed anyway, or stay away from the discussion. 'Let me tell you why you're wrong, because I'm not interested in most of the relevant stuff' is a... weird position.